TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

Did anyone else watch the Ch4 documentry on Sir John Franklin the other evening?  Was this the same Franklin that Chris sings about on Over The Next Hill?  When Chris introduces the song I'm sure he says that the man in the song survived, but the documentry said all 300 died (there was evidence of cannabalism, as the men tried to cross the artic).
Was it the same Franklin, or was it another expedition, or poetic license on that one?

Anyone know please?

Mic

Yes I saw that too Mic..  and I'm sure it was the same expedition.. though I don't know why...

Poetic licence?.. This needs investigating further...

AmyJen

The song referrers to another song, by Pentangle (possibly trad.) which was about somebody on one of the ships searching for Franklin.

I'm sure somebody will look t up.

The song Lord Franklin is a Victorian folk song (sung by Pentangle and Martin Carthy - the tune was stolen from Martin Carthy by Bob Dylan for Bob Dylan's Dream) about the ill fated expedition of Sir John Franklin to find the legendary northwest passage.

They all died, either by lead poisoning from the lead seals, used in the tinned food on the ship, hypothermia or by gradual attrition to the snow and ice.  The Innuit people saw survivors for a good number of years afterwards trying to make their way to safety, but no survivors made it.


http://www.ric.edu/rpotter/SJFranklin.html is a good and technical website on the matter.

Its a bit of a sad song for me because it was the last song I heard on the day my mother died, so I have trouble listening to it  :'(

Poor old Martin. Having tunes/arrangements knicked from him by American superstars seems to have been the bane of his life......

Although the tune for "All in Green" on the "Georgia on our Mind" CD is attributed to Martin, whereas in fact it's Mozart! (Second movement of the Hunt quartet). The words are correctly attributed to ee cummings. I suppose having a Mozart tune attributed to you must rank as a major compliment.  :)

The note at the bottom of the song words says that George Back went on Franklin's first Arctic voyage 1819-1822, so unless the first voyage was also his last, Franklin did survive.

It was, in fact, the 1845 expedition when everyone died.

Ah, that was where I saw the bit about surviving ::)

Must have been another expidition then :-\  cos the poor beggers they were talking about on Ch4 sure didn't survive :o

Mic

Sorry Mic, I modified my post to add the bit about the 1845 expedition after visiting the site that a previous poster recommended and before reading your reply.  :-[

Sounds like a good programme - I wish I'd seen it.  I saw something similar a few years back in a series of programmes about expeditions.  There was one about the Arctic but not sure if it was the Franklin expedition.

It was really interesting, as I said there was much evidence of cannabalism...though the experts who have been following the trail have established that this occurred after Franklin had already died, I think he was a victim of the lead poisoning :-\ But when you imagine just how desperate the poor devils must have been... Of course back in England the cannabalism went down like a lead balloon, and Franklin was credited with having discovered the North West Passage, which, according to the programme he didn't, being dead like.

Mic - I likes history :)

[

[/quote]

Although the tune for "All in Green" on the "Georgia on our Mind" CD is attributed to Martin, whereas in fact it's Mozart! (Second movement of the Hunt quartet). The words are correctly attributed to ee cummings. I suppose having a Mozart tune attributed to you must rank as a major compliment.  :)
[/quote]

Ah, but where did Mozart get it from? It was in fact a pre-exiting folk tune, as are many tunes attributed to Classical composers.

Could that have been the one about Shackleton and his ill fated Antarctic expedition maybe??

AmyJen

re the cannibalism thing
 i dont think it was  that rare in those days,when people  were stranded in inhospitable places with no ready food source
 its called survival and it didnt carry a huge stigma in the days before refrigeration and air drops
  mmmmm im hungry myself now

Though according to the tv prog the Victorians really hushed it up in the case of Franklin...

AmyJen

Does "The Frozen Man" refer to the Franklin expedition?

I think it was John Renbourn who brought "Lord Franklin" to Pentangle. It's certainly in one of his guitar books.

This is a little unfair on His Bobness, as he credits Martin Carthy with the tune and the ideas in some of the lyrics. I didn't think Martin had an issue with Dylan, in fact I believe he was backstage at Blackbush in 1978 as Bob's guest.

As for Franklin, he was known as "the man who ate his boots" following his first disasterous overland expedition to the Arctic. This failure may have led to his decision to return years later when he was far too old, having been governor of Tasmania
He was in charge of some of the Chartists deported following the Westgate Hotel Massacre.

As for finding the North West Passage, this is true in part, as far as there is a passage. Mostly the route is frozen, so there is no definitive passage. Franklin tried during some of the most severe winters known in the Arctic. The first person to sucessfully navigate (Inuit excluded!) would be Amundsen in 1905.

If you would like to know more, try getting a book called "Frozen in Time". Very interesting.

See, I knew there would be a wealth of knowledge in here, thank you for your help boardsters :)

Mic

Yep - cannibalism seems to have an option to stranded sailors - in the celebrated 1884 murder case of R v Dudley and Stephens the two Defendants were castawys at sea 1600 miles from land.  They took the obvious step of killing their ailing companion and feeding on his body and blood until they were rescued. 

Despite pleading necessity and the jury being sympathetic they still were still sentenced to death (although they received a pardon after six months on death row).

Note to self: dont get stranded at sea with burley sailors  :)

You could always distract them with a nice story about squirrels. :)

Don't think so Cocker.. that was one from Louden Wainwright's mind...

AmyJen

It was written by James Taylor, Amy and I believed it to refer to a sailor being extracted from the ice after a hundred years or so. His clothes and possessions, even his body were remarkably intact.

I don't know the whole story but there was a tv documentary about it, I remember.

Oohh James Taylor was it..  then I was wrong.. but didn't LW record it??

Or have I got it completely wrong??

Never mind... ;D

The documentary included footage of 3(?) frozen bodies being uncovered - all very well preserved - back in the 19080s. I remember reading a magazine article on this subject about 10 years ago.  Perhaps JT read a similar article (National Geographic?) and took his inspiration from there....?  Cracking song anyway.

I don't think Loudon Wainwright has recorded it, I thought Fairport did, or am I completely wrong?

I am sure Loudon sang it. Will have to check albums tonight!

Old New Borrowed Blue from March 96 by Fairport "Acoustic" Convention, in this case Simon,Ric,Peggy and Maart.

Steve

The same CD had two tracks by Loudon Wainwright (Men & Swimming Song) which is probably where the confusion arises.

'The Frozen Man' was only two years old when Franklin set sail, so no connection there.

The version of 'Lord Franklin' sung by Pentangle describes a dream about the expedition.
Chris Leslie makes reference to this by starting with the same tune. His song also describes a dream of somebody who did sail with Franklin, but on an earlier expedition.

There you go, told you.

Coming back to Shackleton.. just for a moment...  on the news it's just said that it's the 90th anniversary of his ill fated expedition!!!

What a coincidence!!!

AmyJen

You remember well Cocker. That would be "Frozen in Time". See earlier post. I was in a pub quiz in Radnor about15 years ago. The answer to one question was Baffin Bay which I got purely through knowing the song. Afterwards, the team captain asked how I knew the answer. I explained about the song" Lord Franklin". He said, "that's interesting. One of my ancestors was on the Franklin Expedition". Spooky.

My two-penn'orth (all from memory here, so apologies if I'm getting it wrong)...

The Fairport song I think you're all searching for on Over the Next Hill is "I'm Already There", which is about a member of one of the Franklin expeditions - the one they didn't all die on.  The hero of the song has a brother who is the vicar of a church in Banbury, and the song is about how they're thinking of each other in their very different lives.  There also seems to be some kind of supernatural dream-communication going on but I won't delve into that.  Chris always mentions the stained glass window in the church in Banbury (St Margaret's ??  St M-something anyway) that shows a ship surrounded by ice.

Sorry if someone's already covered this - I'm catching up an extra day's worth today...

That's the one Anna!!!!

Glad I wasn't hearing things (cos I do y'know ;))

Mic

Evidence, please.

Quite, Barry.  ...and you know this because, PLW?  Cite your source.

THat'd be St Mary's, on Horsefair.....