TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

First up apologies for the long post but I promised Thor I would copy his full story. And if anyone wants to move this to another part of the board feel free I wasn't sure if it was best here or on the Fairport thread. Anyway, Thor-Rune Haugen posted this on the FC list (yes the other one). I thought a few of you would be interested in a new recording of the chaps coming to light. When I have any info about links to buy the CD for those not making it to the Winter Tour I'll post them here.

cheers
MikeC

From: "Thor-Rune Haugen" <thr-hau at online.no>

So here is the full story about the "Many ears to please - Live in Oslo 1975" CD. Anyone who's easily bored or couldn't be bothered better jump ship here.

In 1975 I went to this incredible gig FC played at Chateau Neuf in Oslo. DM had left the band just before this short tour and it looked like it would have to be cancelled because there was no way they could hold auditions and rehearsals for a new drummer in time. But Paul Warren, who was an FC roadie, amazingly told the band he'd done some drumming and asked for an audition. He'd been watching DM from the wings many a time and, to the band's amazement, he did a splendid job. More than good enough for the tour to go ahead.

This was FC's first ever indoor gig in Norway (they'd previously only done a festival). The hall was filled to capacity with Fairport die-hards and was a huge success. The atmoshere was absolute magic. It was extremely loud, but wonderful. The reviews were great. I came home, visibly trembling with the excitement (I was only 18 at the time and had been a massive fan for 5 or 6 years) and imagined what a live album of it would have been like.

Then 15 years later the phone rang. A mate of mine had stumbled across two boxes of tapes that simply said "Fairport Convention". Nothing else! But knowing I was a fan, he asked me to come and try to identify what it was. What I heard made me shiver. You guessed it: THAT concert! From tapes nobody knew existed. But it was obvious the recording had been made without the band's knowledge. I was told it had been lying untouched and uncopied for 15 years.

Me and my mate Jonny bought the tape for our own collection. I was (and still is) an unstoppable FC completist. And to own a recording of this concert was too good to be true. But we had absolutely no intention of using it for anything else. I am not a bootlegger and was certainly not going to rip off my own favourite band. But in the mean time I'd gotten to know both Peggy and Jerry. So I sent them both a copy. They both liked it. Which was good enough for me. But as time went by, Jerry went one step further: "Why don't we release it on CD? This is, after all, a totally unrecorded Fairport line-up."

Jonny and I started talking. Could this really be happening? Jerry offered to write in the booklet and help out with anything he possibly could. I called Peggy and after what was probably the shortest negotiation in the history of recorded music (some 20 seconds) we had agreed. Let's do it as a 50/50 release. The band supply the performance - we supply the tape.

It was agreed that we'd do the CD and the booklet in Norway. I knew a mate of mine had unseen pix taken at the show in Skien, Norway the day after "our" concert. They did, however not include shots of Lucas or Warren But we found a line-up shot from the website of a Danish photographer. Jerry delivered his heart felt liner notes. Word of the CD filtered through to Swarb (courtesy of Peggy, actually). He wanted to write for the booklet, too. Which was his very intention. But in his more recent state of health, he just couldn't go through with it, for various reasons. Which his wife Jill explained to us in a deeply heartfelt letter on his behalf. They kindly agreed to let us use that letter instead. And I think anyone reading it will agree it really says it all.

We did everything we could to track down the elusive Paul Warren, but eventually time ran out and we had to give up. Hopefully he will hear the CD and finally get to hear himself coping with the close to impossible task of repleacing one of the most respected drummers at such short notice. Both Jerry and I give him a hero's treatment in the booklet. There were one or two hiccups, but he did more than well enough for the band to seriously consider him as the permanent replacement (JD relates this story in the booklet). I think he would have been much better than BR. Who was an OK drummer, he just wasn't a Fairport drummer. To these ears, at least.

The booklet is 16 pages long, no less. Partly because I now had a chance to write liner notes on a CD by my favourite band. And like hell I was gonna let that chance go. As for the music, it includes many well known FC numbers, but also rarely performed songs like "All along the watchtower" and "Six days on the road". The whole gig is on the CD, with the exception of "Sloth". Which went on for days and couldn't fit in. There are so many great versions of that one out and bout, anyway.

Peggy instructed me to have it ready for the winter tour, so they could sell it there. Then, as the wheels of production were already in motion, I learned that there is also a double CD of recent live recordings coming out at the same time. And I certainly hope our CD will not be in the way of the band's own new live CD. But hopefully you will find copies of "Many ears to please" there, too. We have put every effort into making this a worthwhile release. The music has been remastered as good as can possibly be done with two track tapes recorded through mikes hanging from the roof of the hall.

Yes, the tape started life as a bootleg. But has now been legalised by the band. Every songwriting and arrangement royalty will be paid. And the band get the same share of the profit as we do. They trust us on this and feel we won't rip them off. Can you imagine that? I feel very proud as I think such archive releases could be done this way more often. By the fans for the fans - with the band's total approval and co-operation. It will be probably be sold through the internet and postal order only.

So there you have it. Having been on this list for years, I have been aching to tell you this story for a while now. Hope some of you enjoyed it. I'm over the moon, in fact. And I feel privileged and lucky to support such a friendly, openminded bunch of musicians.

Thor-Rune

This is the key bit for me......  and I am sure endorsement from FC will give peace of mind to all concerned

Mike & Thor-Rune... thanks for the info

Anything to add Simon ?

(Shame about the lack of Sloth though  :'( )

at last !
 a live cd to look forward to(even if the recording might be a wee bit bootleg quality)
 this is the class of thing we want
 well done the norwegian lads

Thor; if you're reading this, well done!


Will this be through the Fairport site? Please let us know contact details as soon as they are available!

Cheers

Nick

Is it the Paul Warren who plays or played drums with the Hastings folk rock group Better Days who have supported Steeleye Span in the past?Or is he too young :-\ I can't remember him really.

If anyone does have any info on Paul Warren can I suggest they email Thor with it as i'm sure he would appreciate any updates going.

ta

MikeC

If my memory serves me right, Peter Knight of Steeleye lives in Hastings, so this may be the connection.

Sherlock of Farnham ;)

i seem to remember a thread about paul warren a while ago , and didnt it turn out he runs a business in australia?

Paul Warren?

http://www.folking.com/reviews/reviews/148.shtml (http://www.folking.com/reviews/reviews/148.shtml)

Same Paul Warren?

Looks sort of like the same bloke. Compare:

http://www.angel.dk/Fairport/OversG2.html

(the Fairport 75 line-up)

with:

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~pdcs/bday0002.htm

(Better Days)

I am very excited about the cd. I think there is a huge ammount of live concerts and videos that should be released. I am also a completist. Sounds like a wonderful job that will be enjoyed by many. Any chance of listing the setlist to get me drooling? 

Ps  Does anyone know what tours lord marlborough was played?  The angel delight tour?

Update from Thor-Rune posted on the FC list this morning. Note his point that it WON'T be on-sale during the upcoming tour. A web link is on its way though.

cheers

MikeC

snipped.....

First of all, I'd like to say a huge thank you for all the wonderful
response I had to the story of the "Many ears to please - Live in Oslo 1975"
CD release. Jonny and I feel very inspired by it. We can't wait for it to be
released.

However, it seems that this CD will not now be for sale from the merch
stalls during Fairport's winter tour. FC have had second thoughts - for the
very understandable reason that they do, after all, have their own new live
CD to sell. So it's obvious they have to make that their top priority. The
last thing I want is for our CD to get in the way of the band's own product.
But they do consider selling it at the website at a slightly later date.
Which would be incredibly generous of them, considering that only one of the
current members is on "Ears...".

We expect the CD to arrive from the factory sometime during the coming week.
Probably fairly early in the week, too. We are in the process of setting up
a website for it. Which should be up and running by the time the CD arrives
here. I'll be around with a URL once it's up, I promise.

In the mean time, here's the tracklist:

1. Down in the flood
2. Rising for the moon
3. Solo
4. Dirty linen
5. It'll take a long time
6. One more chance
7. The Hexhamshire lass
8. Fiddlestix
9. All along the watchtower
10. Six days on the road
11. John the gun
12. Matty Groves
13. Sir B. MacKenzie
14. Who knows where the time goes

More next week - I promise!

Thor-Rune

Worth buying for tracks 9 & 10 apart from the other good stuff. Always good to hear one-offs which showed they were having fun playing. Make sure you print enough for me to have one :)

This looks fantastic, a definite purchase for me.
Slightly off topic, but Mike has reminded me.  What is happening with the FC list? I don't seem to be getting e-mails from them anymore.  Wonder if I've been banned or summat?

Dave,
The list is stil going and is livelier than its been for a while.

I've IM'd you.

MikeC

Save a copy for me too please!!

OK, its update time. I received an email from Thor-Rune this morning. The website is up and running and orders can be placed if you want one.

snipped from T-R's email....

The address is: www.molldur.no

Just click on the British flag to get to the English part of the site. And then click "order" and follow the instructions. If you want to hear some samples from the CD you can do so by clicking "release".


cheers

MikeC

done and done, i cant wait [;-)

Mine's ordered. Also had a listen to the samples, this line up sounds quite distinctive. Should be a worthwhile addition to the collection.

Thor has just posted this....

I promised to tell you when the website for the FC CD "Many ears to please -
Live in Oslo 1975" was up and running. I am pleased to announce that this CD
can now be ordered at:

www.molldur.no

You will first be welcomed in Norwegian. Just click the Britisk flag. Be
aware that not all functions are up and running. But you can now order and
hear some samples. For samples, just click "release" and then select from
the track list. For ordering, just click...well..."order", actually. And
then follow the instructions. You can use credit cards through Paypal. But
there are also other possibilities.

For those who may have forgotten, "Many ears to please" has been released
with the full approval and cooperation of JD, DP and DS. Who were all in
this particular line-up. The remaining members are either no long with us
(SD and TL, of course) and the elusive drummer Paul Warren. It was
originally a bootleg tape, but has now been legalised by the band. All
royalties for songs and arrangements are being paid and the band get the
same share of the profit as we do.

Outside of Norway this CD will only be available through the internet. And
the promotion is basically done by "word of mouth". So please spread the
word for us, if you like. We'd really appreciate it.

Again, thanks everyone for your wonderful response to the news of this
release. No expenses have been spared in order to increase the sound and to
create a proper booklet. I simply do not give a toss whether I get my money
back. This has been a dream come true, no matter what.

Duly ordered and news promulgated to other Cropredy attendees.

Ordered mine just now.  The samples sound pretty good, even on the tiny tinny speakers on my laptop.

all done..

Ordered yestererday. Hope it jumps the Keel with speed so it can arrive tomorrow and be enjoyed through the weekend. ;D
Staffan

My copy arrived in the post from Norway this morning, and it's playing as I type. It's thoroughly recommended, and I congratulate Jonny and Thor-Rune on this project.

Likewise, mine has arrived. What a fine album. Considering its origin, the quality of the recording is outstanding. Well done to all concerned.

I agree with what´s said above. Had just time to listen to the first three tracks during lunchbreak but from what I heard it sounds great. Paul Warren doing a great job on the drums and Sandy´s phrasing is different and interesting. I was moved back to Fairport´s gig in Gothenburgh in December that same year. The recording has a great "live feeling" to it.
Well done everyone involved.
Staffan

not much to add to the prevoius posts but to say i loved it on 1st listen
this was mid 70's fairps as i remembered them,great stuff all round esp the version of "it'll take a long time",
absolutely mighty.it is miles better than the archive vol 1 that came out a while back.
 great work by Paul Warren on drums throughout
Jonny and Thor - Rune step forward and bask in the glory you deserve
now lads , about that version of sloth................ ;)

Congratulations for such a fast delivery from Norway. The recording is simply amazing - what a find!!!!  And quality packaging too, nice booklet with good photos. A superb, very professional release, definately recommended to all. Must go and play it again !!!

mode=AOL

Me too!

mode=TAW

Yes, its a good performance, I liked it, sound quality surprisingly good given the caveats, professionaly packaged, etc. Well done to those that produced it, and to FC for allowing it to be sold.

Mine's just arrived, due for playing this evening.

Thanks to our friends in Norway.

Malcolm

Bu**er  >:(

I was the first to order one (to test the system out for T-R) but as I've been away from home since sunday it looks as if I'll be the last to hear it  >:( >:(

Can't wait though :) :)

                                                

                                                   BRILLIANT!
  superb booklet, very professional, fantastic live recording which I'm listening to over and over again.

All good things come to those who wait. My copy was waiting for me when I got back home on Thursday evening.  ;D ;D

I can't really add much to what has already been said, its an excellently put together package, the liner notes are fab and the sound, well just to hear sandy singing Who Knows with that backing band made the whole CD for me.

Well done and thank-you T-R and the chaps for allowing this recording to be issued. I don't suppose there are many bands would would sanction such a release, but there again Fairport aren't just another band as we all know.

If any of you were not sure about getting this, please do. Its worth every penny.

cheers

MikeC

How nice to come in here and see all these wonderful comments about a CD I am partly responsible for. I'd like to thank all of you for your kind words about "Many ears to please". It's been so inspiring to read. We went out of our way to make this a quality product and a labour of love. Normally Jerry's liner notes would have been enough for the booklet, I suppose. But I finally had the chance to write my own liner notes for a Fairport CD and like hell I was gonna let that chance go. Oh yes, I've been living the dream...

All the best from Thor-Rune

what about that recording of "sloth" that you didnt use?
any plans for it?

Wouldn't fit on a CD, Jim, as its over 90 minutes long! ;D

a version of sloth over 90 minutes long  ::)
now that i gotta hear :D

I was only joking, I have no idea how long it is.

I recall that Stackridge used to stretch "Slark" out for hours on end...

I believe that the Sloth being discussed is 21 minutes long.

I knew that really  8)

Thanks for that link guys - my copy is now on its way.

Just shows you that beneath the chit-chat some real gems are to be had by way of links to other FC related sites and downloads.

Thanks to all and don't stop the chit-chatting!

As a postscript - does the band get any royalties from our purchases?

Answers on a postcard.... ???

well its been done with their approval
 so i suppose arrangements will have been made

Hi Jefferson, if you check the first post in this thread it says near the end

"Yes, the tape started life as a bootleg. But has now been legalised by the band. Every songwriting and arrangement royalty will be paid. And the band get the same share of the profit as we do. They trust us on this and feel we won't rip them off. Can you imagine that?"

So yes royalties are being paid where due.

cheers

MikeC

Thanks for pointing that out for us, Mike. Yes, Jefferson, I can absolutely guarantee you that all royalties will be paid. And that the band will get half the profit, as well. We are currently working on covering our costs. Thanks to people like you lot, we are already 60 % there. I can't wait for the moment we send the first payment to the chaps. Imagine having Fairport on your wagelist.

To give you a feeling of how friendly they've been to us, I can tell you Peggy's response when I asked him if he could suggest a way for them to follow the sales progress of the CD. These were his excact words: "You're our friend and we know you wouldn't do anything to rip us off". How heartwarming is that to hear from one of your favourite musicians (or anyone else, for that matter)? And we felt the same trust from Swarb & Jerry.

We have just sent copies with press releases to Mojo, Record Collector, Dirty Linen, Uncut and Classic Rock. Goodness knows what they'll make of it. We are holding out breath and hope they'll go easy on the CD. Hopefully they'll get the point that it's an honest collaboration between fans and band. And a true labour of love. The press in Norway has been nothing short of phenomenal. Only one grumpy reviewer so far...

As for "Sloth"...well, thoughts and ideas are being discussed by Jonny and I. But don't hold your breath. I'm not making any promises, cos nothing gets done that ain't approved by Peggy, Jerry and Swarb. So it's a "maybe or maybe not" situation on that front, I'm afraid. At the appropriate juncture...in the fullness of time...

I'll get me coat...

Thor-Rune

Thanks again for doing this, Thor-Rune - and stick around! No coat needed!

Thanks for the info on royalties guys - much as I like live bootleg recordings of different artists (I have approx 300) I have not 'paid' for a single one of them. These have all been 'traded' i.e. 'swopped' with others for other bootlegs or on a 'blanks & post' basis. I would avoid paying good money to someone who openly rips off a band as I'm sure 'most' of us would. This CD is also well priced so good luck with the sales knowing that a decent contribution will go to the "FC Touring Fund".

Digressing to bootlegs for a bit longer .... there is a particular guy at the 'car boot sale' at Cropredy each year and I do feel very very irritated that he is openly selling for as much money as a brand new CD (and I don't mean Tesco prices!) an extensive selection of Richard Thompson bootlegs. How is he allowed to do this at such an event as Cropredy? What does RT get from any of this?

I have recently asked one member of Talk-a-while for a recording of the recent FC Cambridge concert he was 'offering'. Expecting him to ask for my trading list, he said I could have a copy for £10!! TEN BLOODY POUNDS and in who pocket does that go into I wonder?

Just so every one is clear of my intentions regarding bootlegs - live music is the best music. FC proves this time and time again and their Live CDs to me always outshine any of the original studio recordings. New arrangements come into play as each tour season passes. Live music is liquid and forever changing. Band lineups change and so does the music bringing new colours to older familiar songs. Studio outtakes are, for the most part, the coffee dregs that are left. Thats why they are never released by a band. They can only ever be of mere passing interest.

Comments and criticism welcomed!

Ok - you should name them & shame them. Sorry, ut that's my 2p worth....I would hope that this group wouldn't rip off our favourite band.....

I hope I don't know this horrible person....

It may or may not be the same person who has put this up on BitTorrent sites such as BTJunkie

whats the beef here?
 if you dont want to pay £15 for a boot - easy - just dont buy it
 and  bit torrent sites are the reason the internet exists. arnt they?
they certainly make up the bulk of traffic on the web, so i guess thor rune and the chaps arn't alone

if one of us is selling boots the he /she should be named and shamed

are there any recordings from the, just finished, wintour out there in cyberspace?

I don't like the term boot, but I agree with you in principle. I think archive concert material should be available to the fans. I agree about how music is fluid and the different tours have different feel or band members. Sometime a song will be played differently or only on one tour. I like the king crimson collectors club. The band collects old material from various sources( including boots) and releases the best of them. I beleive there are over 30. Some bands are selling live cds of the show you attended. I love that idea, but so far it has only been big acts.  I love having copies of shows I attended. I would like to see FC have a collectors corner. I can trade, if the band is ok with that. Not all bands have the grateful dead approach to live trading. Also I read Maarts view of demos or outakes. I beleive they were not ment for public consumtion and therefore shouldn't be traded. A live show was for an audience, so it was for public consumption. If FC ever makes old recording/videos available, I will buy them. WHat are their views on traders? I have almost all official FC cds. I just listened to a 71 and a 78 show that I got in a trade, and I am so happy. I still haven't found that live version of lord marlborough, but another version of adieu adieu is always welcome. I'd never heard tipplers tale tour live, so it was a nice surprise. But I respect the right for  FC to get  money for their work. Anyone know how the band views traders or old archival recordings?  Anyone know of a live version of Lord Marlborough? 

ps  a dvd of all the old FC footage would be very very welcome. It all comes round again and again :)

 

if bands dont want studio outtakes to surface why dont they destroy the tapes
if studio outtakes are out there then its too late, the horse has bolted
 fand will always want to hear unreleased stuff
 i went for over 30 years before i heard the david rea /tom farnell rosie sessions
but i knew that they existed and while they wernt as good as the released stuff
 they certainly didnt disgrace the fairport name

I've no problem with licenced stuff like Thor-Rune's - that's the way to go.

But to make a profit from a punter's recording of a live gig that the musicians aren't paid a penny for....

That's illegal. That's immoral. That's what was being discussed above.

Whilst I broadly agree with you Chris what is the situation regarding photographs taken at gigs? If for example someone wanted to reproduce pne of your photos from an FC gig in a book would you charge for the usage and if so would the band whose image is being used benefit at all?

The other question, and when it is based on live recordings rather than cheap copies of studio albums, is do the bands lose out at all? The people who buy botlegs are likely to be c ompletists who will also buy all legal recordings as well.

Just asking the questions out of interest.

Jackdaw

Very good point, Jack. I've considered that at length over the years, and I think it's very true - in fact, I'd go further than that and say that unofficial recordings - bearing in mind that "bootlegs" are only one sort of unofficial recording, those which are produced en masse - actually do a lot to promote a band.

It can't be just coincidence that those of us with the biggest collections of that sort of material, are also those who spend the most money on official music. I know a lot of Fairport collectors - both those from the old school tape trading scene, and also the current CD-R traders, torrenters, etc - and all of them are the sort of people to buy not only every Fairport album, but quite often any offshoot recording, and needless to say, attend gigs whenever possible.

I don't really have a problem with the selling of boots, as in the RT @ Cropredy example quoted, or at record fairs etc. The recordings aren't something the band could make money from, so they're not losing out in any way, and it's allowing people who wouldn't normally be able to obtain such recordings to do so.

It's not something I would do, however I do deal with people on a bespoke, one-to-one basis in a similar field. Usually taking an order to convert someone's rare/totally unavailable LP to CD, or perhaps convert a cassette they have of an old live recording. In those instances obviously I do have to charge for my time/expenses but that's not making any claim on, or profiting from, the original recording. Again, I deal with enthusiasts who have & will buy anything & everything official so nobody's losing out.

So I guess what I'm saying is that it's a very complex issue, and if there's one thing you learn in life it's that you can't really have hard & fast rules on such things.

Tosh!

If punters are prepared to pay £10 (say) for a live bootleg from a bootlegger (or even someone booting the the original bootlegger!), then ehy on earth wouldn't they pay the same £10 to the band themselves if they made it available directly?.....


Indeed they possibly do. But see above. Artists may have very good reasons for not putting out a live recording. Timing - they may be pushing a studio album (likely if they're on the road!) and don't want to distract from it. It might not be technically perfect. etc etc. On the other hand, they may well be thinking about it - but by the time it's been mastered, the bootlegger has cleaned up by putting theirs out within days / hours of the gig and definitely diminishes any sales of their own product.

So in both cases (the latter significantly more than the former, I grant you), the band loses money.

Secondly the band own the copyright. Legally they are owed a consideration for this from anyone putting it out. So they lose money that way too.


Aaahhhh....legally speaking, once a photographer has the artists permission to take photographs, technically that is where control of the result passes to the snapper as copyright in the image belongs (I believe!) to the snapper & not the artist. I guess legally there's the artistry of the snapper to consider in the angle, timing etc of the shot - whereas the bootlegger turns on their recording device at the start & turns it off at the end - not much artistic merit in that!). So there isn't the same consideration to be made.

Personally speaking, if I shoot an artist, then that artist always gets a set offered to them, to do what they wish with - with one proviso: that I get a copy of whatever it's used on. I think that's pretty fair - I recognise the artists talent by supplying the images, and the artists recognise my talent(?!) by supplying me with the finished product. I find that a fair way to work.

If a third party then wished to use it in a publication, it would really depend on its circulation. I got asked for a particular photo by one of these partwork publications last year, with a circulation / sale of 000's if not 00,000's. I took advice & charged then a (small) percentage of the turnover of that particular part. It's the only time I've been published in that sort of high-volume publication.

If the publication is basically a labour of love, and unlikely to sell more than 1000, I would likely just ask for a credit & a free copy. Which I've never been turned down for.

I don't think that was what Jim was saying though Chris. In fact he has already said anyone selling boots should be named and shamed.

And for the record I agree with him

I'll add my recommendation of this worthy project as well, and encourage others who have received it and enjoyed it to do so to keep it up on the board where anyone new wandering by will see it and help them (Jonny and Thor-Rune) recoup their expenditures on this labor of love. 

I'm just a bit concerned that the side issue discussions/concerns will get in the way of and obscure the fact that this live recording does have the band's blessings and is giving royalties where due.  Not that those issues don't deserve the semi-regular airing, but they don't apply to the recording that this topic was begun to address, IMHO.

In response to Neii's post can I add my request to making this thread a sticky please. Any excuse to promote this line-up

As a new bod to the site do I take it that this is the same recording mentioned here?

http://www.talkingelephant.co.uk/titles/title.php?Title_Ref=776&Genre_id=all&Artist_Ref=227

yep thats Johnny and Thor-Rune's  cd  alright
 good for them , getting talking elephant to take it up 8)

The person you are talking about provided some of the materiel for the RT boxed set, and is thanked in the back of the book - so I guess that he has some kind of arangement!


If a given artist does object to bootlegs, surely the answer is simple - sell your own (as RT does to an extent).

Government Mule sell boots of all their converts through MuleTracks web site, and the Levellers sell recordings of gigs that you can collect on the way out (!).

Personally I don't have a problem with Boots, as they tend to be bought by hardcore fans only anyway. As my Wife ways, if Richard Thompson farted and released it as a CD, I'd buy it. If he wants more of my money the answers simple, put more CD's out!

I think the artist's main complaint over boots is the quality issue - for instance, he might not think a particular f**t in tune, loud enough, wrongpitch etc etc, and wouldn't put it out themselves.

Artistic control I think it's called - and I have no complaints on that score - they are entitled to control over their own music - they all have off-days....