TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

After about 7 years on the Fairport List (mcvax), I've just now unsubscribed.  The signal to noise ratio has leaned far too heavily towards the noise in recent times for my liking, and the last few days' worth of essentially personal emails - literally dozens of them, with no great purpose - inflicted on my inbox proved too much.

Just in case anyone asks.

Best of luck to those remaining.  I'll stick around here though!

MH

I can't blame you on the evidence of the past few days, Michael. I'd fortunately set a filter to sift them all off into a separate folder, usually to peruse at my leisure, but this week to delete more or less sight unseen. I'm not sure what makes the half dozen or so people think that it's OK to bombard several hundred subscribers with - yesterday - about 100 utterly pointless emails. The over-zealous moderation is causing a few problems here at the moment, but there's an example of what can happen on an unmoderated forum.

well, FStix, I certainly agree about the level of noise/personal and off-topic blather of late on the list, but I've been what would be considered a "lurker" there for years myself in the digest format, which I find quite easy to quickly scan through or disregard totally if it all looks as bad as that.  There is something that will crop up once in a while that is worthwhile that I don't see here, but it has gotten to be much more rare.  Good to know you'll be sticking around here, at least.

I really do find this format more user friendly, which is why I never post to but subscribe to both the Fairport and RT list digest versions.  The number of times people snark about the way people post to the lists is enough to keep me from even making the attempt.  I love that you can even preview how it looks prior to posting here.

Thanks Neil,

I can't imagine scrolling up and down through that amount of **** in a digest, in the vague hope of finding something worthwhile though! 

Re certain complainers on the RT list in particular (in the minority, I might add) - at least one advantage of the email is you can just block their address and never see their venom.  I guess I could have just blocked the half-dozen or so people on the Fairport list, but enough was more than enough, really...

The trounle with the fairport list in particular is that there are too many people who have a vested interest in the band and are only too happy to let everyone else know it. I cancelled my subscription over a year ago.


I would tend to agree Alex, and sometimes find that the moderation here tends to mean that debate is stultified - leading to days of blandness. BUT to be fair to the mods - I find that even if some posts are removed as being over the top or too controversial, that is normally the end of it.

I feel reasonably content in being able to say what I want because I know that whilst I may be moderated, it is normally because I have gone too far in trying to provoke a reaction, and that the removal of said posts will (normally) be the only come back!

If'n you don't like it, don't read it. If'n you do, do. Let's not get into a slagging match.

Signal to noise here is a subject of criticism elsewhere.

Who gives a flying duck really?

I have also finally jumped ship and unsubbed though I was just a lurker in recent years. It has degenerated into chitchat, and on digest it's as unreadable/uninteresting as any other chitchat chatbox. So why was I on it still? Snippets of news I guess, but this here is the better place for that.
It's 5 to 10 people talking to each other, wholly taken over by chatters ... always the same ones, often reposting entire emails with just something like (mindnumbing internet language) "LOL" or "ROFLAO" (sp?) added. Either that or the list has hardly anything at all for ages. If a topic is started which is actually about Fairport or such like, it quickly turns into further nonsense blah blah. Well, it has been like this for quite some time now, and it might well happen to most mailing lists, which is why I am only now on the low traffic Iain Matthews mailing list. Not that that doesn't have its moments of chitchat, but at least it's not much - and I kinda need to be on it coz I started up that mailing list years ago and therefore am moderator (with nothing to do I might add)!
So fare thee well FC list - it used to be a nice mailing list which had genuine r/l comraderie (Crop 1998 springs to mind) and thanx James for maintaining it and good luck to 'em.
Up the fez [;-)

(well really it's no Us and Them thing of course - I mean what are we talking about - but the recent FC list is the best reason why forums like Talkawhile are so user friendly - just look up topics of interest)

I read the Fairport list for a week before unsubscribing.  I felt intimidated, persecuted and unwelcome - and I hadn't even dared to submit a post!  It struck me that the list consisted of approximately 6-10 people who were close friends with each other - all of whom had vested interests - and took offence at anybody else either joining in or posting something that didn't agree with their views.  The time I actually "joined" was when there was that mailing list that people could sign up to (the one that Simon Nicol said on here was okay) and the outcry from somebody who, as I understand it, is Fairport's own PR person was very shocking to me.  The inference from one of those emails was that the list was only for people who were close friends of Fairport and other people should keep away.  That's when I realised that, as I am not a friend of Fairport's, I should not remain on the list and so I left.

I joined that list once for a very short time.

Mostly I couldn't make head nor tail of it.

If Suzanne's impression was right, then I don't think I'd want people like that as my friends.

Dearie me!! :o :o

Jude

For the last few days there seems to have been lots of pseudo-dating going on, which is pretty weird in a list subscribed to by hundreds of people. I have never posted, nor intend to - I only keep an eye out for anything of direct relevance to the band, which is virtually nothing at the moment.

In a good mail reader the topics on the list should thread and be split up much like a bulletin board. However over the last few days this does seem to have gone horribly wrong and some very interesting posts on the Fairport List have been drowned in rubbish.
Some topics even look deliberately disrupted (by changing the topic when replying).

And again. Very few posts on this board get moderated. It's mostly a matter of clearing up the silly and me to's, in order to keep things readable. If anybody thinks that a post of theirs has been unfairly deleted, please contact Nick or Myself. We can put it back, or put a copy in 'About this board' where you can contest it.

We also try to keep the noise in the Arms, which is opt-in.

I wish I had the faintest idea what you were all on about. What is The Fairport List?

(sigh of relief)
thank god someone asked!

i have no idea either!

I thought it was when every member of the band started leaning in one direction.........

Just an email discussion list - 500 or so people, you send an email and everyone on the list receives a copy. Sort of like here but instead of just browsing through a website, you get everything delivered to your email inbox. It started in about 1996 and was originally quite a good place for Fairport news, gig reviews etc (again, much like here) but a lot of people feel it's degenerated a bit into a perpetual conversation between half a dozen or so people.

ah.
thankyou!

The problem with the list, from which I have also recent unsubscribed after about 8 years mostly of lurking, is that it is totally dominated by about four or fve people who tend to band together against anyone who disagrees with them.

Another issue is the blatant hostility which is shown towards the existence of talkawhile by certain listmembers who really should know better.

Jackdaw

(feel free to moderate if you wish)

Sounds like a terrible idea. Imagine getting all the tripe that gets written on here landing in your inbox everyday!!!

Its a shame that some people have felt unable to join/stay joined to the Fairport List.  :-[

Without debating the merits of the FC list as opposed to Talkawhile (both of which have advantages and disadvantages), the actual situation of the last week or so is that we have had a couple of people joining the list, who have done so by getting involved and asking lots of questions. At times the replies have gone off on tangents, and yes, ended up with some bizarre discussions.

Its a shame that people have felt that the list is 'too' linked to the band. In actual fact, this board is much closer to the band, and for the most part the people who are closest to the band (to the best of my knowledge) are generally on both (with one notable exception). The dfiference is that when the discussions move off-topic, the moderators on here can move the discussion to a more suitable location/thread, which the FC list can't.

D
xx

Sorry for the double post.  Was going to edit my original post, but realised I can't, or at least, don't know how.

Anyway, the other thing about the FC list, which possibly makes the users (including me) less likely to appear inclusive, is that we know that the posts only go to those who are specifically subscribed to it. I can see that if you subscribe in the middle of a discussion (or a number of discussions) that appear completely off topic and maybe even seem to be private conversations, it would be completely off-putting, and if we don't know there are new people around, we do have conversations as if everyone knows what we are talking about. If that has proved to be the case, I can only apologise on my own behalf.

I believe it is less likely to happen here because everyone knows that the threads that aren't in the Corporation Arms are visible to anyone, anywhere in the world.  You can even get to them via google (which I just did, although you need to have a idea of a couple of keywords to find them), so people are more circumspect here.

D
xx

I joined the Fairport List in 1999, shortly before attending the Cropredy festival for the first time, (I had a different nickname then, I don't remember what it was but it was probably just as silly as the one I have now!). I found the list to be a welcoming, friendly and informative email forum and much of the music that I listen to these days is a direct result of the recommendations and information that I picked up during the 6 years that I was there. Being a non UK or European resident, the FC-list was my prime source for news and views on the music that I love to listen to, and about which I knew very little at the time.
Over the years the list deteriorated into a sporadic cross-flow of snipes, gripes, personal messages and mostly off-topic posts that meant very little to anyone who wasn't directly involved in the dialogue and/or conversation of the moment. Based on my experience with another email list that I was on for about the same number of years (TalkTull), and which deteriorated in much the same way as the FC list did, I conclude that the average "shelf life" of an email based, music discussion list is about 6 to 7 years.

WK

Sounds like the BBC Folk & Acoustic Forum. Makes me realise how good Talkawhile is.

Thanks Colin!!

As Leahon will attest, sometimes sweet moderation is what keeps things together.

At times the Mailing List has been the heart of the Fairport community, at others it's been distanced from, because of the flame wars. Use whatever suits you (sir).

I'll come clean, and admit to being an active member of both The Fairport (mailing) List and the Talkawhile Bulletin Board and am posting this message to both.

Both are generally congenial and welcoming places, with Fairport Convention information, discussion and some general chatter, with lurkers outnumbering active posters. Some of us spend far too much time on one, the other, or both.

I am guilty of not following the list convention of changing a message subject when it degenerates into chatter, which I admit does make it hard for people following the digest version of the list or using an inadequate mail user agent which doesn't thread properly. Once such a message has been sent, there is nothing that anybody can do to correct or stop it.

To those ex list members who I have helped drive away: My apologies, please come back.

so if there are so many active members of both, how come after 9 months membership to talk awhile, i've never heard of the mailing list?

As a few people have said, there is obviously plenty of room in the cyber-world for both.  My point is that it's just very unfortunate that something once so good has become so ordinary.  With one or two particular members there who seem to have unfixable ego problems, I can't see how it's going to change, or even reverse its decline.

Perhaps the problem is more apparent to those who have been on the list a long time and can compare past to present.

So if anyone wants to try and change it by bringing the discussion mainly back to Fairport, then good luck to you.  My suspicion is it won't take long to degenerate back to its current state.  There are those who have decided they have the right to spout whatever (and however much) garbage they like to the world at large, and don't take kindly to the idea of moderation, in any form.  There's some very good people there too, of course - tellingly, a great deal of them choose to remain silent....

MH

i'm sorry, i still dont think i get this tho.
if its e mail its not that anonymous?
so how can one remain silent?
yes i know, they can choose not to advertise the fact that they are involved, but if its dear to their heart, why wouldnt they want to shout about it and get it fixed?
i'd liken the situation to the hippy commune ideal.


i speak as a non member and my comments may be either irrelevant or plain out of line, but thats how it looks to an outsider.
my biggest worry in life is colin..............'aaaarrrgh - run for your lives........'
( only messin colin - i'd rather you than a million unknowns after my hide..........)(and actually paul scares me more)

on a serious note tho, with no regulation, you cant regulate hundreds of people :-\  people is what people is.

fortuneately in the society in which we live, we do.
we also have the right not to listen.
we also have the right to debate.

abby

As it is, you join the list and, like all members, get every email anyone sends to it.  You can either get them individually or as a digest each day.  You don't have to actually post anything yourself to get all the emails.  Why people choose not to post?  Shyness, unwillingness, afraid it'll be lost among the chatter.....

This is a salient point for me atm - I've recently become a co-moderator on another list (to do with Australian rock of the 60s and 70s) - until recently, it too had so much chat and personal abuse, people were unsubbing and the decline was obvious (not to mention the spam) - all because the moderator was busy and couldn't do anything about it.  Now with firm but fair rules in place, and moderators unafraid to cop the abuse from banned troublemakers, the list is back to where it was - lots of friendly on-topic conversation and a positive feeling once again.

As far as I can see, the FC List needs a similar kick up the arse - a definite set of rules ("ooo - rules, how un-rock & roll!" as one perpetrator whined on the other list) and a moderator or two in place to enforce them.  No disrespect to James the listmaster here either; his job is to maintain the list which is separate from moderation.  The rules could be mutually decided within the group, not just suddenly imposed from above. 

But I doubt it would happen because there are currently too many people happy with the "anything goes". 

and again, i'll liken it to the commune mentality - a great marxist idealism in philosophy which just cant work given the state of human nature.............
(and i'm the biggest effin hippy going), but in pracise -it always FALLS FLAT in whatever form.

but i wanna keep on tryin............

peace.

Responding mainly to groove st's messages:

To find the Fairport List, try Googling for it.

The Fairport List is closed, but not moderated. Almost anybody may join, after which they receive every message sent to the list. They only become visible to others if they choose to post. There are a few lesser sanctions, such as peer pressure, and the list owners can throw people off the list. Disenchanted subscribers can try to change other people's behaviour (the list charter recommends this be done in private email), be more selective in what they read (where accurate subject headings help a lot), "killfile" some posters (so they never see mail originating from them), or just walk away (sadly, a few seem to have done this).

Generally, closed unmoderated mailing lists with hundreds, or thousands, of members work very well, provided people follow the lists conventions, lurk for long enough to find out what they are, obey the list charter, think before they post, and have some self control. It helps if people use mail clients which can cope with the volume of mail and organise it properly. For example, no mailing list emails make it into my inbox, instead being automatically filed away in folders I only look at when I want to, thanks to procmail and mutt. As I get thousands of emails a week, I couldn't survive without such. With such software, mailing lists become very much more efficient than bulletin boards, but nowhere near as pretty.

Moderated mailing lists are possible, but work in reverse to here, with every message going to the moderator for approval. Even if much of the moderation is automated, the human moderators have a big, thankless, task. One evening off and the conspiracy theorists fill your mail queue.

More generally:

I'm slightly amused to see "joined them, said something, got a hostile reception" posts on both sides of the fence. Maybe what was written was in the wrong place or under the wrong subject.

I'm sorry to see long term members leaving from either side.

Being bemused by what is going on is normal (for me at least) whenever I join a new discussion group.

I'm of the opinion that raking over historical conflicts (and there have been some I gather) is totally unproductive, and that any remaining antagonisms are best kept private.

Things change to suit circumstances, or die.

Funny this topic was started yesterday, as I SUBscribed only last night, having heard of the mailing list very recently. So this very morning I received Vol. 11, issues 21 & 22 in my mailbox, and I did not know what to make of it at all. I had expected to read about all things Fairport as I take a deep interest in this precious band, which is why I decided to lurk for a while. I thought it was me not having woken up yet... I kept frowning at the enormous amount of chitchat that has NAUGHT to do with Fairport or linked subjects. What are they on about?! Well, by the looks of it (reading all the messages above) it wasn't me. So ok, I'll give this mailing list the benefit of the doubt, whilst keeping the comments above in the back of my mind, but if this thread of dialogue on the mailing list doesn't change for the better then I'm out. As it is now, I feel very uninvited to place anything on it. First impressions eh...

Nav

The people on the mailing list have noticed the list is a topic of discussion here on TalkAwhile and are not happy about the way it's being discussed. Someone refers to those (long-term) members who have just left and claims it's your loss, not theirs. Hmmm...

Reading through the issues again I am genuinely bored. I hope this changes, that the people on the mailing list give me a reason to stay. Good luck to them.

Nav

To be fair, the incredible volume of very brief, non-Fairport, almost Messenger style posts over the past couple of days (about 60 in three hours the other morning) is pretty out of the ordinary so I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea.

Often the List is fairly quiet, and at other times there's quite a few interesting on-topic messages. Today there's an interesting thread on recent albums, the lack of electricity, etc. The problem is that when there's a lot of irrelevant stuff it's tricky to sift out the wheat from the chaff.

Mainly though, I think it's just really the sporadic & lengthy bursts of in jokes & e-flirting between half a dozen or so members (which is really only of interest to those involved & could/should be done privately) that frustrates people, especially those of us who don't have the time/inclination to write and read dozens of emails all day.

So I'd give it a chance, Navigator, get a feel for it over a week or so and then decide. Or perhaps if you do unsubscribe, give it another go at a peak time - tours, Cropredy, new albums - when there's more on-topic stuff.

Like I said, I WILL give it the benefit of the doubt. But I must be honest, TalkAwhile is not just interesting and inviting to at least explore at what you call peak times. That - to my mind - is a huge difference. Topics galore at 'quieter' times! The Fairport list should be inviting to scan at ALL times. Mind you, it shouldn't be/become a competition between TalkAwhile and the Fairport List. I'm just trying to get my message across to the people of the mailing list.

Nav

Too right - with one in particul;ar causing the Admins plenty of problems....


Two now....:-)

The last few days have ben like a private conversation between around 4 members....A quick pointer to the List FAQs (which are comprehensive!) would have answered most of Hannah's questions...and the rest should have have been taken privately....

To be frank, I'm not sure that the current FAC tour has even been mentioned, certainly no review that I've seen....

To be fair to those complaining, the last 'generally agreed' ground rules on the list were that discussions of any music & the artists were OK, the rest to be consigned to a separate 'off-topic' list which still exists. I do think the latest exchanges have damaged the list....

The same FAQs that state clearly at the top:
"General advice on posting to the list:
Please engage brain first and ask yourself whether the vast majority of the list would gain from what you are about to write!"

Why bother having them if everybody chooses to ignore them?

There was a mini-thread about the Saltaire gig, reviews & setlists from Nigel Schofield and Tim Moon, but other than that I think you may well be right. It hadn't actually occured to me, to be honest, but it is slightly strange now you come to mention it  :o


That has always seemed like the logical solution to me. Keep the main List for on-topic stuff so it's manageable for people to read, and the handful who want to chat can do it on the 'off-topic' list. I'd rather see half a dozen interesting messages than 60 pointless "ROTFs" and "Me Toos".Unfortunately the attitude amongst said handful is that they're doing nothing wrong and therefore won't change a thing. I think the fact that most of the more valued members have either left or no longer post would suggest otherwise.

This board probably isn't the right place to discuss it but I think people don't really want to post this sort of thing on the List itself as it doesn't seem to produce a constructive reaction.

I AM giving it a go at a - and I quote - peak time!! There's a FAC tour going on at this very moment! Are the people on the Fairport List really that busy with... well, what really? Come on! I want to see reviews of the gigs! If only because I live on the other side of the North Sea and can't attend any of them.

I'm lost for words.

Nav

To be honest, I think part of the problem is that many of the off-topic discussions are generated from the on-topic discussions.  Yes, Hannah should read the FAQ, but it does mean that we've all got to know her quite quickly, as opposed to if all the messages had stayed perfectly on topic.  However, the number of ROTFs and Me Toos has dropped compared to a couple of years ago.
Anyway, a discussion on the merits of how the list is run was started last night, and has been getting some good discussion going.

Donna

It certainly has Donna.

Both andy Farquarson and Jane Smith has posted excellent comments to the list regarding the merits (and demerits!) of the FC list whilst both saying, rightly, that both the FC list and Talkawhile have their place in the FC family. If you don't like it there then please leave but I think that having a go at them from here is a bit of a cheap shot, as is having a go at us from the list.

I've been a member of the FC list for quite a few years and until very recently its been extremely quiet for the last few months. The recent debates have been largely fun, lots of them off topic and rightly people are saying they should be taken there but there has been a lot of activity which if you were new to the list could be a bit overwhelming. So, I would cut the list a bit of slack as they are largely doing to this board, (trying to avoid them and us comments  ;D) and remember we are all part of the extended Fairport family.

Now, anybody fancy a pint, I'm off to the arms as its been a long day already   ::)

Well said that man.  ;D

At the risk of drawing out a prolonged thread.....
There's room for both approaches. I've been a member of the FC list since, I dunno, 1998? and have just joined this one. I like the style of this one better, I think, but as somebody said, if you take the digest, it's petty easy to skid past the dross.
If it gets really out of hand, I look at the list of topics at the front of the digest, and if there's nowt there, I don't go any further.
I'm not a prolific poster, I've been a fan of the band since 1969 (yeah, I'm old), and use the list for interesting info on related music.
It's also useful for getting advance notice on gigs in my areas (SF Bay area) so I can leap in and get good seats, rather than go "rats, I wish I'd known about that".
I plan to stay on both lists, it'll be interesting to see how I feel in a month.
John M

Welcome John

I've been a member on the list for 5 or 6 years I think (maybe longer) and a lurker for many of those. I did post in the early days and then when this board appeared was against the format as it didn't arrive in my inbox, I actually had to go and search out what had been said  :o That said I soon got used to here and like it a lot. The list has been too quiet for a long time but has burst into life in the last few months and for me that is a great thing. OK if a lot is OT but from what has appeared in my OT inbox in the last day or so those discussions have been taken off list. Amazing what can be done with self moderation  :-X

I hope you are both here and there in a month's time.

welcome again

MikeC (welcome mod to new members)

Both TAW and The List have their pros and cons, group of common posters, and (I suspect) even larger group of lurkers. Both are friendly, provided the norms are observed. TAW is probably easier for people with lesser mail clients or skills to cope with, and is more ah, diverse, especially in the Corporation Arms. Though I have hopes that the recently revigorated Off Topic list will become equally entertaining.

Who are you calling "lesser", sunbeam!  ;)

AND who are you calling "common', pal?  ;D

joining in  ;)


who are you calling a con sunshine  :o I'm an upstanding pillar of the community.  [;-)

Oh dear, my apologies, and there are more words in there to be misconstrued. It won't be long, I'm sure.

tarda: by "lesser" I meant that if  you or your mail client can't cope with upwards of 200 messages a day, you'll be struggling to stay afloat.

Anji: By "common posters" I meant "people who post to one or both the lists and Talkawhile". Dare I say that you are remarkably uncommon? Yes, I never did know when to stop digging.

mikec: Err, if the cap fits? (Ducks)

Until a week ago, I had thought that the List was a fairly quiet place with some gentle FC related conversation, and until a couple of days ago didn't know about the Off Topic list. Both are very lively at present, with reviews, musical discussions, vigorous disputes, while the off tic list has humour, serious debates, amazing personal revelations, and terminology which would have moderators' axes cutting  posts and topics (while wishing for necks). Both are greatly entertaining and hugely informative.

Sadly, just as all three places are bubbling away nicely, I find that I have too many other things that I have to do, and must cut back on all of them. One last trawl through Talkawhile, and then thats me off the air for a while.