TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

Right then chaps,

I was recently listening to Nine, a fab album IMHO. Now whilst allowing that Rosie as an album was a bit hit and miss, and that Rising for the Moon was more of a Sandy showcase than Trevor it seems to me that there is still a lot of great stuff from those years that seldom gets dusted off nowadays.

The key vocal combination of Trevor and Swarb strikes me as similar to that of Simon and Chris so I wonder why we get so little - what price the current line up giving us a version of Pleasure or Pain, and I would love to hear Simon singing something like Restless or Iron Lion. Not to mention Polly on the Shore just for the joy of Peggy's fantastic bass line.

Essentially I guess the question is why doesn't Simon sing any of Trevor's songs - to me their voices seem to be in a fairly similar register and the songs would fit the current line up very well.

Any ideas?

Jackdaw

definitely not overrated, possibly overlooked by some but not here
the 9 lineup was great live, and none too shabby on record

Now that's a bit of understatement and a half  ;)

Nice track.  Awful album.

Not sure how underrated Trevor was/is mind - he sure was a fantastic talent...but doesn't seem to get the respect from 'outside' that he deserves...

A.T. 2 is a great Trev-fest.....such a pity he died so young...

I thought Trevor had a cracking voice, wrote some good songs and was a good record producer too. My favourite song of his on Nine was Bring 'Em Down. Also don't overlook his contribution to Fotheringay.

Swarb thought highly of Trevor too, enough to write a song for him.

Maybe it's the Jerry Donahue factor; does Simon really want to play lead?

And yes, Trevor is basically in the same register, which means that Polly must just be a terrible oversight...

Last time they did Polly at Cropredy was one of the milestone anniversaries and Ralph did it as guest if I remember rightly.

Simon's sung 'Polly' a few times since the early 90s, part of the touring set for the 93 & 94 tours & several times at Cropredy. It's very hard to pitch at the start though so you can understand him not wanting to put himself through it every night!

The Plainsman is a good song too.

As with most Fairport the Lucas/Donahue era were better live than on record. They are well represented with live material throughout the years and they really made Sloth there own.

82 was my first Cropredy and I still remember the magic of Trevors voice from that show.

I think it's the lineup that for obvious reasons doesn't resonate particularly with Simon, Peggy on the other hand along with Swarb seem to be very attached to the period.

Possibly my favourite lineup because Nine was the first Fairport album I ever heard.

I love the line up, but the studio stuff is not all that great with a few exceptions. All the live stuff seems great. I love his voice, both in Fotheringay, with A.L.Lloyd, and with Fairport. I think Polly is my favorite from that era. Also their version of now be thankful is very fine. I think some might overlook it, but I don't think the era is over rated. I wonder if his and Sandy's daughter has any of their vocal or musical talent. Even if it isn't folk, I would be interested to hear it.

Not to quibble, Mindwarper, but that line-up didn't do 'Now Be Thankful'. The Gottle line-up did it, the early 80s four piece(s) and obviously the current line-up, but not Nine. I bet it would have been good though....I can just hear Jerry playing some nice subtle lines, and Trevor's acoustic guitar & bass vocals.

Google not a lot of help re Georgia Lucas.

Has an article on her accepting an award on her mothers behalf.

No mention of her own artistic talents though

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/folkawards2006/report06.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/r2music/folk/folkawards2006/report06.shtml)

That's because she is (was?) a DJ in Australia. I say was because her website describing her thus died about 4 months ago, and nothing further has been seen or heard. I guess Simon N may be able to shed light on what she's up to now, as I assume that would have come up in conversation at the awards....

Thanks for starting this thread Jackdaw. Every year before Cropredy I've voiced the hope of some representation for Trev. He wrote some great songs, had a really expressive voice and had great stage presence.  Maybe next year we'll hear "Ned Kelly", Iron Lion" or "Plainsman". Didn't we have a bit of a debate about "Knights of the Road" a while back? Nice rock song. Overlooked for far too long.

I thought some of Trevor's stuff was great - "Bring 'em Down" is my favourite Fairport track. I like his vocals as well. Rosie, Nine and Rising are patchy albums though... Although I think Nine is pretty strong. One of my fave Fairport albums.

I love Side 1 of 'NINE'. A real return to form. In many ways, that line-up reconciled the pre-crash and 'L&L' Fairport styles - and in so doing paved the way for Sandy's return. (Even if sharing Trev's bed at night was her leading motivation!)

(In an sense you could even argue that 'NINE's' style prefigures the post-'GLADYS' mix...?)

The highlight of the album, though, is 'Bring 'Em Down' - a song so full of bile it makes the 'VOLUNTEERS'-era Jefferson Airplane look wimpy!! It's sung with such passion, with the band alternating between blister and psychaedelic sensitivity - and Jerry has never done those tremelo fills better. (Except on the live version dominating the latest reissue!!)

I struggle with the rest of the old Side 2, though. It takes me back to the mundanity that was large parts of 'ROSIE'.

That said, I still contest 'ROSIE' has other great moments than the title track. I love 'Down By The Danube' for all its silliness, DM's piano rolling and Trev's end vocals. ("We ain't your Rolling Stones. We ain't your T Rex. Actually, we're only here for the beer!" FAB!!). The 'Hen's Midden...' thingie is a really startling piece of Swarb showmanship superbly recorded. And the last track about the clock - can't remember the title - is a worthy effort too.

The corker, though, is 'Matthew Mark Luke & John' - thematically a tentative light alter ego to the damning darkness of 'Bring 'Em Down'. Musically the multi-tracked choral vocals set against what is arguably Fairport's most heavy metal track inbetween 'The Lobster' and the 'Metal Mattie' of the '25th ANNIVERSARY CONCERT'.

Once again though the reissue's live version tops it. Donahue is at his most I'll-eclipse-Thompson's-memory and the vocals are so spot on I had to listen and listen and listen again to convince myself they weren't studio overdubs. Peggy in particular is to be singled out for praise. His high harmony on that version is the kind of thing Graham Nash is extolled the world over for. Just breathtaking!

So, yeah, I love the 'NINE' line-up. Not perfect in the studio by any means but a highly inventive band that could dominate a stage and enrapture an audience.

I don't think Simon has anything to lose by tackling Trev songs. He's so long gone now there's no sense of competition - but Simon-does-Trev would give Fairport access to some real overlooked gems and pay homage by excellence to a stirling Fairport line-up.

And, if Simon really doesn't want to be Jerry Donahue, then get Jerry Donahue back!!!

I read Clinton Heylin's biography of Sandy (NO MORE SAD REFRAINS), and I've come to wonder if maybe the positive side of the musical story of the "Nine + Sandy" lineup has not been properly told.  I've wished that Jerry Donahue would write a book, or at least an article (chapter of his biography?) about his years in FC (1973-1975).  Heylin's book makes several comments about Trevor being regarded as a "mediocre musician", but I don't think that's fair.  To me, his main musical sin was overdoing the strings when he produced Sandy's solo albums.  And, okay, if Heylin's account is correct, he did overspend on an expensive P.A. system for Fotheringay which apparently didn't work very well, thereby helping to squander their limited funds and contributing to the forces which ultimately led to Fotheringay's breakup.  I've seen reviewers denigrate his songs on the FOTHERINGAY album, but I certainly like them.  (And not forgetting his contributions to the songs for the aborted second Fotheringay album.)

Getting back to the "Nne + Sandy" lineup, I share the view that they showed their best live.  Since I never got to see them live, the best I can do is the live recordings.  MANY EARS TO PLEASE and WHO KNOWS? rock and give Trevor a chance for greater exposure.  (Since I'm a train enthusiast, you KNOW I like "Iron Lion".)  I'm looking forward to getting the remastered and bonus-tracked FAIRPORT LIVE CONVENTION, which I hear benefited greatly from the remastering, and Trevor gained with the bonus tracks; he had been relatively under-represented in the original track lineup.  Also, this album is really a "Nine/Nine + Sandy" album, since the instrumental tracks were recorded before Sandy rejoined; they seemed really cracking to me (on the original CD issue)!  I haven't gotten around to digesting BEFORE THE MOON yet, so can't offer an opinion on that one.

I must offer a confession underlying my seeming fascination for this FC era:  I BLEW IT!  I moved to New York City in 1973, and in 1974 and 1975, I went to Renaissance concerts TWICE.   Neither time was I lucky enough to have picked one where they were billed along with FC!  It's true that, although I knew a little of FC and liked what I had heard, I had not yet become a fanatic fan.  So now, the best I can do is play these golden live recordings of yesteryear through my titanium diaphragm headphones and let my imagination do the rest!

Cheers ///  Tom ***

Have recently been listening to "Restless" a lot.  It's a great song, and one I've not really listend to that much in the past.

Thank you. I hadn't seen that article or any photos of her before. It is nice artice and photo.

ps Alex, you are right. The version I am thinking about is on it all comes round. I think it is a 1970 show. The one with the helicopter taking off. I sure do wish they would release all the odd video bits on dvd. Or add extra footage to it all comes round again and release it on dvd.

PPs Is all the unreleased aborted 2nd fotheringay album songs available ? Is there any live material available for a live fotheringay cd?

When push comes to shove, Nine is my favourite 'non Sandy' album - a fabulously strong set of songs.

While I'd have a hard time living without the Sandy albums and Full House, Nine is my favorite! 

Concerning Trevor tracks, nobody has mentioned, Possibly Parson Green.  To me, that's the coolest rocker of the whole album.  I like to play it for folks to let them hear those incredible time changes.....GAWD - they were a hot line up!

Nine is a clever and inventive album.  The heavenly ending of To Althea From Prison......you just can't get those kind of embellishments from a group unless their creative juices are flowing at maximum!

I'm also glad that the thread has given me the opportunity to comment on Trevor's string arrangements on the Sandy solo albums.  While I prefer the demos and unaccompanied broadcasts which chronicles that material, I've grown to appreciate Trevor's approach to the strings.  For the most part, they are tastefully done and lack the pretentious 'cheeze' factor that has destroyed so many fine compositions by other artists.

I don't know whether this come back to "this was the line-up that I first heard", but I love the Trevor era.  When I first saw (indeed, first heard) the band, Sandy had just rejoined and "Live Convention" just released.  As recorded on numerous occasions, I hated it!  It was very loud and I knew none of the music.  Then I had time to get used to "Nine", "Live Convention" and, subsequently, "Rising for The Moon" (still one of my all time favourites) and fell in love with the band.  Next time I saw them (Drury Lane on the "Rising" tour) I loved every second.

Trevor was, for me, a fine writer with a fine voice.  On the rare occasions that I pick up a giuitar to accompany myself, "The Plainsman" from "Rosie" is one that I sing.

And talking of "Rosie" - am I the only one who rates "Furs and Feathers"?

Definitely with you there, Barry. I find "Rosie"better than its rumour.
Talking of Trevor, I think he -to my mind - suited The Fairport mode more than Fotheringay ditto. In Fairport his songs and singing  helped to bring the albums to a collective high level, while his singing and songs in Fotheringay seemed out of place to me. Fotheringay was Sandy´s project and Trevor´s songs and singing didn´t seem to "fit" in that band.
Staffan

Ummmm...a MAJOR disagreement with you about Fotheringay there....!

I actually prefer Trevor's stuff on there to Sandy's....and to me it's always sounded like a Trevor Lucas album with Sandy Denny vocals on it.  Strange how we all interpret the same thing in a very different way isn't it...

As I've just been admitting to someone offlist, I've completely revised my opinion of Rosie in about a week....having not listened to it for about 10 years.  I actually think there are a good 5 or 6 really strong songs on there...it's the production (sorry Trevor) that seems to be amiss...nowhere more so than on the title track...which is pretty high up in the Production hall of shame I'm afraid...

As the years go by I more and more enjoy musical differences  ;).  It makes me see new things in music I´m very familiar to   :D.
Over the years I´ve come to rate Side 1 of the "Rosie" LP as one of my Fairport favourites.A couple of my favourite Trevor tracks and my favourite Peggy instrumental. I never saw the "Rosie" line-up live (only the Sandy-has-returned version) but the live tracks on the remastered CD the other year also suggests a very good live line-up.
Staffan

I've got the remastered set of Rosie,Nine, Live & Rising for the Moon, and I think that they represent a great era in the bands line up, from the strong material on Rosie, to the whole of Nine, and even material like One More Chance, Restless, Iron Lion, this is an era of Fairport ripe for rediscovery. As for Bring Em Down, the 16 minute plus live version on Before the Moon is stunning,with Trev's wonderful voice, mingling with Strawb and Sandy to create a great sound, DM and Peggy holding it all together like the powerhouse section they always were, and as for Jerry, wow. This is probably that era's definative track, and should be in every Fairport Fans top 10 track list. Would love to hear them resurrect this one for next years Croppers, with Simon on vocals, think he'd more than rise to the occasion (or indeed for the moon....groan!!)

I first heard Furs and Feather's on DM's Attic Tracks Cassette, which I bought in 1981 at the Broughton Castle Festival. Before then I knew only Babbacombe Lee.
I think it's a fantastic song, esp Swarb's vocals. Funilly enough, I've never heard thec studio version, so can't comment.
And it's always reminded me, vocally, of 'Something Got Me Started', by Simply Red.
No?
Just me then.

Me too! 

can't comment on the Simply Red track as I haven't heard it.

i have heard it and cant figure out what on earth you mean
it is probably just you then

I too think Heylin's Sandy biog was unfair to Trev. So he was a bit of a larrikin  - well he was an Aussie wasn't he?

Anyway I treasure the memory (such as it is) of a totally legless four way conversation involving Trev, Peggy, my mate Roger and me at the Half Moon circa 1974. In memoriam, Young's Brewery......