TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

I just love 'QUIET JOYS OF BROTHERHOOD'.

I know it's culled from 'official bootlegs' which were probably never mixed properly, if at all. I'm suprised Peggy put his name on it as producer - it's so bad! Yet the music just shines through the appalling production.

Having it on the car CD player yet again recently set me thinking both as to just how astonishingly good it is and how the circumstances shaped it.

For me, it's certainly the most innovative album since 'LIVE' and arguably compares with 'HOUSE FULL' and the first 5 *classic* studio albums. Although FC had been a part-time band again for 3-4 years, they had only just released the first new studio material since the Vertigo albums and the Cropredy line-ups were much more integral to what FC was than has become the norm since - ie: the current line-up with old members guesting.

Perhaps  several of FC's heavy hitters didn't take it that seriously in 86-87. Reputations weren't that obviously on the line so they could try stuff that might or might not work. Just a week or so a year and some of them might not see each other again until the next Cropredy.

Maybe that was the shade of genius that seemed to hover again over FC in those years. In contrast to the rigid only-the-line-up-which-originally-recorded-it-can-play-it ethos which has largely dominated Cropredy since the 25th Anniversary, 'QUIET JOYS' shows the guys breaking all kinds of boundaries and making great music by doing so. Ric's see-sawing violin on 'Suzanne', Jerry riffing behind Richard's soloing on 'Time Will Show The Wiser', Ralph McTell and Richard so metallic on 'Bridge Of Sighs', Jerry's melodic looping on 'For Shame of Doing Wrong' the perfect set-up for Richard's snarling solo, Iain's so-emotional reading of 'Who Knows Where The Time Goes', Maart's fretless bass on the second version of it...and what about the acapella 'Woodstock'?????

The quality of music is just so astonishing it carries in spite of the abysmal production. It's perhaps no coincidence that the strongest album by the revived band, 'GLADYS LEAP' came from this period.

What do others think of 'QUIET JOYS' and the sense of the band in this period?

The genius of Fairport and Cropredy in the mid 80's was the jamming as you have noted. This is what hopefully will return this next year rather than the slavish recreation of bygone years.

I am hoping to see something a little unusual next year not just the early years followed by everything after that. They had better pull out all the stops as this will probably be my last Cropredy 6000 miles is such a long way for a history lesson ;D

No pressure then, chaps  :-\

As a live proposition Fairport were monster in the mid 80's - the gigs at Masham town hall (fueled by lots of XB) were fabulous - probably helped by it being a standing only venue, we danced until we dropped. Then out into the snow for Bacon sarnies from the cafe - happy days.

The confidence to jam was what appeared to go when DM & Maart left - which is such a pity because peggys bass playing really lifts when he has the fredom to play around a bit.

As I've said elsewhere (even today) this was the period I first saw Fairport and they were an excellent band.  They did some different things then too - I remember a Fairport New Year's Eve ceilidh at Gloucester with Beryl and Roger Marriott in 1988/89 (I think).  Don't see them doing anything like that now...

And I loved the slide shows for Hiring Fair and Portmeirion too.

I guess a lot of it depends on when you first saw the band and what kind of tinted spectacles one is wearing at the time!

I first saw them in the early 80's and was lucky enough to see the Swarb/Pegg/Nicol/Bruce line-up about 3 or 4 times.  My first Cropredy was '84. 

I was gutted therefore when Swarb ceased to be a member.  I still am, and, much as I love the guy, and fully recognise his amazing talent, I've never been fully reconciled to Ric's style of playing within the band.  I'd be much happier with Chris on fiddle and a decent guitarist and singer (a pity Steeleye got there first - discuss?!).  However, I now find myself listening to the 85-97 band quite a lot (live, not the albums, none of which I find terribly satisfying although one or two have their moments) and liking what I hear.  I'm afraid to say the current incarnation is my least favourite line-up, and certainly on record...none of which I find more than momentarily attention grabbing.

To me, Gladys Leap has the germ of a great album, but it's not quite fully formed.  A bit like my argument  ;)

You naughty, naughty man.

The scars from the last flame war over the Ric/Swarb debate are still pink and livid.

Don't ever mention the subject again.



Now, how about a discussion re: DM Vs. GC?

Anyone?

Yeah, definitely a great period.  I prefer the philosophy (of newer members shaking up the old material) to the more rigid original line-up format of the last three BIG ONES. 

GLADYS is a great album, but I feel JEWEL was the "crowning" achievement of that particular line up.

I like Gerry just dandy w/ Fairport, but DM will always be the Daddy-O Drummer!     

You know, as a Leicester City fan, I feel at home among Fairport fans. Always moaning that it's not quite as good as it used to be, and hoping it'll all suddenly be as good as that Cup semi-final in 1969. Rarely able to enjoy the moment we are actually in.

 ;D  I think that's true to a certain extent....BUT the difference with a band is you have so many, um, records of what they have left behind from different era - live recordings, albums etc etc etc which we can listen to again and again and again.  I won't apologise for thinking the band were better in the past...but I will for not being quite as openminded about what they are doing now as I might be...

And after all, let's not forget 'you' didn't actually have long to enjoy that semi-final did you - you lost to Man City in the Final, AND got relegated.  You see a Cup run always carries a cost....  ;D

Neil Young got the winner. Surprisingly, the first Canadian songwriter to score at Wembley.

Followed shortly afterwards, I believe, by Alan Morris of Bangor, just before the sex change and that appalling Jagged Little Pill album

Interesting point about Ric Sanders' playing. It had never occurred to me.  :-X

Gerry Conway was a superb drummer circa Fotheringay (listen to the subtlety of the drumming on "Banks of The Nile")... He is not in the same class as DM who is one of the best in the business (including full-tilt jazzers). Bruvce was underrated and sad not to see him at Cropredy reunions. He held the drum chair at a very good period of recovery for FC. Nice guy. Only Fairporter at Woodstock.

Ric's just very different to Swarb in his playing.

Swarb always sounded to me like a folkie fiddle scraper who - as he actually did for 'A Sailor's Life' - stuck a telephone microphone piece onto the bridge on his instrument. I know many people - including Ric - rated him as important to folk as Grappelli was to hot jazz and Menhuin to certain types of classical.

And maybe that's just it. Because of Fairport being a rock band who tackled folk, I tended to see Swarb as someone who largely stayed within the folk idiom as being limited. I was much more impressed with the likes of Papa John Creach and David LaFlamme in the early 70s.

Which isn't to say that, within the folk idiom, Swarb wasn't superb. Some of his playing on 'BABBACOMBE LEE', for instance, is so sweet it brings tears to my eyes and drags me back time and time again to that album. Another piece of his that has a similar effect on me is 'The Hen's March' off 'ROSIE'.

Although he had been messing with folk-derived material since at least his days with the Albions, Ric brought quite a different sensibility to FC. Very different to Swarb - a difference Ric really emphasised in the early days with all that echoplex and phased stuff, etc.

To me, that was quite a good move. Someone more in the Swarb style - like Chris! - would have always been the 'poor man's Swarb imitator'.

I think Ric was also a large part of the confidence FC had in jamming which Neil reckons is the core of my comment about the 'spirit of genius'. How many could get up there and spar so effectively with Richard on 'Suzanne' and Jerry on 'Carolina Moon' in front of 15,000 after just a couple of rehearsals?

As to GC and DM.... maybe it was that flat production on 'L&L', maybe it was just that I thought Martin was one of the greatest drummers ever and had the potential to put the likes of Ginger Baker in the shade, maybe it was the showy little flashes at live shows in the early 90s which actually disrupted the rhythm of the songs, but I've had a hard time taking to DM.

Maybe it was that first Steeleye album? They each drummed on 4 songs and I thought GC was so much more distinctive than DM. His opening to 'The Blacksmith' was just perfect - and totally grabbed your attention.

Paradoxically GC's drumming on Pentangle's 1989 reworking of 'So Early In The Spring' was so boring it really made me wonder if he'd lost it; while I finally got the message on DM's subtleties when listening to his verse-starters on 'For Shame Of Doing Wrong' when I picked up 'QUIET JOYS' last year.

So, there you go.... any conclusions on Swarb vs Ric or GC vs DM? Not really; but a lot of thoughts!

Fascinating stuff.... a bloody good read!

Just had to say how much I agree with the rating of Martin Lamble. He was well on his way to being a truly great rock drummer. Amazing range of technique.... I love listening to his (last ever?) work on A Sailor's Life or I'll Keep It With Mine.... No Man's Land... dreadful loss to music.

Correct about DM being a tad too over-technical at times.... But still a great, great drummer.

Now, back to Bruce!

Interesting post Keith...The only thing I strongly disagree with you about is where you talk about Chris (or a.n.other fiddle player) being potentially regarded as a Poor Man's Swarb.  I just can't see that...I mean the two guys played together in Whippersnapper happily enough and there was never that kind of feeling from the audience?  I don't remember anybody saying that at Cropredy '92 either... He's a different fiddle player, but he IS a fiddle player.  Or was.  To my mind, two of the things that define what Fairport are (post L&L) are a lead guitar and a fiddle player, and they're missing both of those at the moment...  :-\

Although Joni Mitchell hit the post in 1971.

??? They have two fiddle players.

No they don't.  They have a (supremely talented, before anybody accuses me of saying anything I'm not) electric violinist, and a Bouzouki player

 ;)

I'm not sure Chris Leslie played bouzouki till he joined Fairport. To my mind he is a top violin player but don't take my word for it, Joe Broughton said to me once that Chris is the "finest".

He's also one of this country's great mandolin players. A superb musician.

The chemistry of the current Fairport line-up is a matter of personal taste of course.

I didn't mean to imply that Chris was in any way a lesser musician - and I hope nobody took it that way. He is clearly a 'natural' - as he turns his hand easily to a variety of instruments. To hold your own in FC for any length of time - let alone 10 years! - speaks volumes.

However, his violin style is, IMHO, a lot closer to Swarb's than it is to Ric's. If I listen to, 'MOAT ON THE LEDGE', the cod-live 'IN REAL TIME', then '25th ANNIVERSAY', then 'CROPREDY BOX', for example. I find that we go back and forth between a traditional folk-based sawing (Swarb and Chris) and a more electronic jazz approach (Ric).

If Swarb was the greatest ever in his style, then following him would inevitably have put Chris at a disadvantage. Putting the very different Sanders in the violin spot deflected that because clearly Ric was so different. You can debate the appropriateness of such a stylistic change but that very change makes it impossible for it to be a debate about the person.

In the same way, Simon having a 'go' made direct comparisons between Richard and Jerry difficult. I find them stylistically similar in many ways - though I would probably concede that Jerry is more fluid while Richard is more innovative.

Guitarists - I agree totally with what you just said about Jerry and Richard.  I do notice a touch more of the influence of Clarence White and other stringbenders in Jerry's playing, and more attack and fireworks in Richard's styles, but I also hear plenty of common ground.  I love 'em both.

Drummers - It's DM all the way for me.  His playing on the 'Babbacombe' Lee album in particular is fantastic, and the production has him playing across your stereo speakers like he's there in the room.  I love his fills on John Lee and Hanging Song.  I think Bruce got a bad rap and did an admirable job.  Gerry's always been great - I agree that in his earlier days he could give DM a run for his money - his work on Fotheringay and Hark! The Village Wait is first class.  Going back in time I think Martin Lamble sounded spirited but a little unpolished, like he only just made it by the skin of his teeth, but he was a young man when he died and would know doubt have continued to grow and develop.  I very much doubt he'd ever have achived DM's level of excellence though.

Fiddle players - I hear what some of you are saying about Swarb being a folkie scraper, but to my mind he was irreplaceable and Fairport just haven't been in the same league since he left.  Ric's style of playing is too flash for my tastes.  I prefer Chris, but it's still....well it's still not Swarb.  And maybe that's because Swarb was more than just a fiddle player.

I think the main issue with the band is vocalists.  Swarb was never really acknowleged as a singer (especially because in essence he replaced Sandy Denny in this role), but I love how he sang.  Now Be Thankful has to be one of the all time great vocal performances.  I always thought Simon was fine as an occasional singer, but when he became the main vocalist, it just wasn't happening to my ears.  I prefer Chris, but it's still....well again it's still not Swarb, or Richard.  (Never mind Sandy!)

As a fiddle player and a singer I think Swarb was essential to my concept of a full blooded Fairport, and the albums made since his departure just don't do it for me....excepting the ones he and RT play as a guests.

Jules

Chris Leslie is amongst the finest traditional fiddle players in the country at the moment - and just because he didn't invent folk-rock fiddle playing in the way Swarb did does not mean he is a lesser musician, merely a younger one.

I think it is unfortunate that he seems to play more mandolin / bouzouki with FC than he does fiddle but thats the way it is. He is also a fine singer and a developing songwriter, IMHO he stands alongside Swarb in all categories, except for one - he's probably a better dancer!!

Jackdaw

Funny looking bouzouki I saw under Chris's chin for a lot of the Fairport set at Cropredy.  ;)

 ::)

I know...those Hendrix impressions he does with it are quite impressive aren't they  ;D

I think you’re absolutely right that the band hit a mid-eighties peak, at least in terms of live performances. In Real Time is/was certainly the best of the ‘live’ albums in that it’s concise, is a snapshot of the band at that particular stage of their career (although anyone who’s heard the In Real Time video can hear how that really sounded on stage) and impresses both through the exemplary playing and the choice of material. Everyone was on top of their game at the time, the line up had a good balance and, most importantly, everyone was also in regular employment outside the band, and so there were always outside influences, the guys were being stretched musically and were adaptable to new challenges, and all of this was brought to focus and used when they returned to Fairport. This is the sort of conditioning for a musician that you just don’t get from messing about with hobby side projects. There was a certain, not arrogance, but certainly swagger, manifestly evident on the brutal version of Bridge of Sighs from QJOB which you just don’t seem to get with these days’ by rote versions of (say) Waiting for the Tide to Come In.

Hannibal began reissuing albums from their classic period, so there was some renewed interest in the band's history to complement the anticipation for the new line-up.  Both the past and future appeared fresh and renewed for both the band and their audience.  It was a sweet period.

Sorry, not sure what that is. Maybe I'm just being dense.

On 'Quiet Joys of Brotherhood' there's a live version with Ralph McTell of his song Bridge of Sighs.

Thanks

Surely not possible