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Title: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: RichardH on March 13, 2007, 09:50:57 PM Maybe you can help on something that intrigues me, a apropos of nothing! What is the technical grammatical description of the tense used on many folk lyrics to denote the recent past - that something has just occurred - and what is its significance? It's often used randomly with the present / perfect tenses - is it a medieval Scottish thing?
e.g Willie of Winsbury (RT Life and Music) "The king he has been a poor prisoner..." Bonnie St Johnstone (RT 1000 years) "She's took out a little knife" Tam Lin "and she's gone to Carterhaugh" (NB Fairport's versions don't seem to use this tense as consistently as others but it's still there) Cheers R Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Jim on March 13, 2007, 10:40:13 PM its just english as she is spoken outside the east end by some people
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Curt on March 13, 2007, 11:09:17 PM Looking in a book of English usage it could be 'present perfect with past time adverbs', but i'm not sure if that exactly fits {:-)
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Sandra on March 13, 2007, 11:22:45 PM A pedant writes :
I agree. I think that it is the present perfect, a tense that sometimes confuses in that it is called a 'present tense' but speaks of the past. The reason for this is that the event started in the past, but it is still happening, so it is past and present, so to speak. Coat on reciting verbs ;D ;D ;D Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: bernief on March 13, 2007, 11:43:34 PM Present perfect it certainly is. Pops up in Sir Pat Spens too. "The king sits in Dunfermline town..."
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Mr Cat (Lewis) on March 13, 2007, 11:53:28 PM Aren't most of these songs written as if the singer is providing a contemproaneous commentary, similar to the conversations I used to hear on the Blackbird Leys bus on a Saturday night.."So I says to him.."? The technique presumably is derived from the oral epic tradition where some of the action is described in the present tense as if the reader were present.
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Shane (Skirky) on March 14, 2007, 12:39:50 AM Definitely the present perfect - as in "I've gone down the wing and crosssed it to Alan Lee, who's fallen over...."
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: James SftBH on March 14, 2007, 01:21:24 AM Definitely the present perfect - as in "I've gone down the wing and crosssed it to Alan Lee, who's fallen over...." ;D ;D I immediately thought of footballers when I read the opening post. ;D Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Harry (Jules) on March 14, 2007, 06:42:28 AM I used to hear on the Blackbird Leys bus on a Saturday night.."So I says to him.."? Crikey, things have all gone Dickensian since I was last in that neck of the woods. It was "I'm off for a joyride,then" in those days (with the Abingdon influence of ending every sentence with "then".) Jules ;D Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Cocker Freeman on March 14, 2007, 07:41:20 AM All Liverpool footballers have special training in subject and predicate. That's the Shankly "sweatbox" influence still coming through. Then.
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Nick on March 14, 2007, 10:58:43 AM I used to hear on the Blackbird Leys bus on a Saturday night.."So I says to him.."? That is very typical of 'local' in these parts, usually followed by a repetition for conformation: "So I says to him I sez..." "Then I goes into town I does" I'm impressed that someone in Vancouver knows of the Blackbird Leys bus mind. Myself? I goes home goes I on the 35, Abingdon via Kennington in goes ;D Cheers Nick Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Sandra on March 14, 2007, 11:50:19 AM I've just been to Blackbird Leys and back on the bus. Heard none of the above, but one woman did talk on her mobile phone all the way back (I am assuming there WAS some one on the other end, but no indication of it) when for sport I counted 63 'Yea but's.
A pleasant journey. ;D ;D ;D Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Jim on March 14, 2007, 11:57:41 AM you use PUBLIC TRANSPORT!!!
how awful for you Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Sandra on March 14, 2007, 12:19:33 PM Have to Jim. I can't drive :o :o :o
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Jim on March 14, 2007, 12:21:15 PM get a man in to drive you
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Sandra on March 14, 2007, 12:22:27 PM I usually do but they were all busy this morning, and I had to meet a man in an ambulance ;D
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Simon Nicol on March 14, 2007, 05:45:27 PM Not the driver then.
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Sandra on March 14, 2007, 06:14:08 PM No. A chap from St John's re the Oxford Folk Festival, fortunately. ;D
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Chris on March 15, 2007, 10:39:38 PM Is this just slightly off-topic?....
Title: Re: Calling grammarians / folk tradition gurus Post by: Sandra on March 15, 2007, 11:01:07 PM Yes
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