TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

I was wondering why Sir Pat was left off Liege & Lief.  To my ears it's the catchiest thing recorded at the sessions and if I'd had a say I would have been pushing for it to be released as a single at the time.

Was it really left off because it was considered to be weaker than the other material?  Surely not.

Or was it indeed being held back to be released as a single and such plans were scuppered by Sandy and Ashley leaving?

Or did the band just feel that they hadn't gotten a decent enough take and decided to return to it later (which they in fact did)?  Is that a dodgy note I hear at the end?  I definitely think that the BBC version is stronger (despite RT's guitar being either mixed much lower or totally absent).

Anyone know?  Or have a good theory?  Or even care?   ;)

Simon?

Jules

probably because they knew it would sound better by the full house line up ::)

...except it doesn't.  Maybe it's because I heard the Sandy version first, but I much prefer the earlier versions.  Now I love Swarb, I'm a big fan of his vocals, but not many people could live up to Sandy's way with a song.

Jules

It's probably down to balance and to the length of the album.

L&L is IMHO the most balanced and well ordered album in Fairport's canon. It plays as a complete entity and no song is out of place. It is a great LP - even listening to the CD version I still feel the point where side 1 ended and side 2 was to begin and I always notice Spens as 'not really part of the LP'.

Vinyl LPs were restricted to approx 20 minutes per side. Adding in Spens would have pushed out the length of one side (possibly beyond what the mastering could cope with?) It would also have made the running time of one side imbalanced compared to the other and there may not have been another way to even things up and still keep the flow of the record.

My guess is Spens was not chosen for the final cut because the chosen tracks and the running order gave a better fit and made a more complete package.

Cheers

Nick

But isn't that a lot to do with 38 years of familiarity, Nick?  If Spens had made the grade and, say, Reynardine had been left off, you might now be saying that Reynardine doesn't fit.

Jules

Actually, the truth is that it was left off the album as a mark of respect to the families of those lost in the shipwreck.
 ;)

I don't profess to know what makes a good running order for an LP. All I know is that the LP hangs together pretty much perfectly.

Would you have Spens following on after Come All Ye? I don't think I would :-\

Cheers

Nick

the full house version knocks spots off the l&l versions

They followed Fotheringay with Mr. Lacy and got away with it, so anything is possible!

If LP time limits were the factor for it omission, SPS could have been exchanged with The Deserter without any harm to the album in general quality, IMO.  

I think things turned out pretty good the way they did.  It was nice and exciting to finally hear the L&L versions in the late 80s, after years of rumored existance - much like the Byrds' RCA versions of Eight Miles High and Why when they surfaced from oblivion in the mid 80s.

I have to go with Jim's sentiments ( if he don't mind! ) in saying the tune helped the FULL HOUSE album a lot more than it would have helped L&L.

As I recall, there was quite a lot of publicity around the release of FH involving SPS specifically - if my memory serves me well, I recall Swarb being interviewed on the radio about SPS, and exlaining that the words were actually a poem (?ballad) originally, which FC set to a tune which they borrowed from another song; this would explain the lack of correlation between the verse lengths in the words and the tune (ie some of the word verses only take up half the tune verse (is this beginning to sound like Mr Lyttleton's explanation of "one song to the tune of another"?).

When I saw them on the FH tour, the crowd was shouting for SPS, which they eventually did as the encore. So the publicity clearly had the desired effect in bringing the band and that song in particular to the public's attention.

DC

I was wondering why Sir Pat was left off Liege & Lief.

You know, I've been scratching my head and really can't remember much about it. My gut feeling is that the song in the time Sandy was still with us hadn't really gelled and was kind of on probation - certainly it had more raw power in the subsequent Full House line up.

I'm not even sure that it was recorded during the sessions which produced Liege and Lief...

yesssssss 8) ::)

No, no, no!  You can't replace The Deserter with Sir Pat - those are my two faves from the sessions!   :o

I agree that ultimately Full House needed the song more than Liege & Lief did, but I still much prefer the Sandy vocal versions.

Jules

Thanks for trying to stir the memory cells there, Simon.

And yes it was recorded at the L&L sessions.  One of three known songs that didn't make the record - the others were Quiet Joys of Brotherhood and Ballad of Easy Rider.

Jules

The latter being one of my favourite Fairport recordings of any era...

Indeed.  Ballad of Easy Rider is an absolute cracker!  But of course that really had no place at all on L&L.  A single coupling Sir Pat and Easy Rider would have been choice pickings.

Jules

I'm very fond of it, myself, Jules.  I only chose that particular tune as a replacement because the mood, tempo and theme are close enough to SPS, that they could have been switched without compromising the general ambience of the album.

I hate to say it though, but I actually prefer the Full House BBC recordings of The Deserter over the L&L version too!

I heard Martin Carthy play it last night at the West End Centre, very different tune and words.  

Carthy's a master at going back to the sources and approaching a song from a different angle.

Jules

Last night I was listening to several Fairport versions of the song and thought "why was it not on L&L?". I was about to ask when I found this thread. I do like both versions (L&L and FH) but I do believe if they had really refined it with Sandy it would  have been great. I have also listened to the BBC version and this is better than the L & L one. Is it true that the L&L one is just a rehearsal version?

I still can't believe it was left off, it was surely only a gnat's away.  Agree about the BBC version.  It has more oomph.

Jules

I'm the same. I was familiar with the L&L version some while before I bought Full House so the Sandy version still always feels like THE version to me.

I understand there are supposed to be mistakes on it but I love the live version on Farewell Farewell, it just has a marvellous energy to it and love the vocals.

Stupid thing to say (and I hope everyone knows I'm no sexist), but (and probably because of which version I heard first) it really doesn't sound right sung by a woman to me...  

I love the Full House version, and I also adore any version sung by the post-'76 4-piece as well.....

I was listening to the version with Sandy and suddenly felt a bit sad that she died so young and that there are just a couple of her albums and listening in that mood I appreciated it more. I wished I could relive that 1969 concert again and now knowing all the songs of L & L could tell what they played that night. I knew the songs of the first three albums but I don't think they played any from these.

Tommy rot!  You could say the same about The Deserter.  Sandy sings both superbly.

Jules

You could, but I didn't.

What I always thought would have been an even more interesting telling of it  would  be to have a voice for each part-a narrator part, the king, the bonny boy, Sir Patrick, and the mermaiden. The Fairport version is probably too quickly paced to have done that, but in the full ballad version, one could accomplish that quite nicely.

I like both versions, but am a little confused by the lyrics in the FC versions..why does someone "prank" Sir Patrick by recommending him as a skilled sailor to the King; why doesn't the King know already that Sir Patrick has no nautical abilities?  I can't recall the lyrics of the recent version by Martin Simpson save that they made a lot more sense!

I always wanted to do that with Steeleye's Dark Eyed Sailor - the narrator, the sailor and the wife.

Jules

Shouldn't Swarb be asked what he thinks about this question. We don't want any inaccuraacies do we?

DW ;)

Did sandy ever sing this live when she returned to the band?

MY 14 year old son is currently putting together a Lego movie to go along with Sir Pat's adventures.  Is there a 'proud Father smiley' somewhere? :)

 :) That's really cool. Let us know when it is done.