TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

I would guess that if a book does happen, there's a lot of Trevor Lucas in it. You knew each other pre-FC/Eclection ... there's this priceless anecdote about the two-man dulcimer you 2 brought into the Cecil Sharp House (can't remember where I read it) in 196something ... did you keep in touch after he left for Down Under? The world was a lot bigger then, pre internet days, contactswise. I know he was doing a lot of production work but would you think he'd gone back to performing had fate not intervened in '89? History (i.e. Clinton Heylin in his Sandy bio) has unfortunately not been kind to him (and that's putting it mildly - did Heylin hold some kind of grudge?) ... to me he's a giant not purely in the physical sense of the word - my fave album ever might well be Fotheringay and it's every inch his as Sandy's, and in Fairport he did some fantastic songs (why is The Plainsman not a classic? I want that played at my funeral, though I do not plan to ever die).
Anyway ... so had Trevor stopped at all being a performer, or did he ever think about, or plan, returning to stage or studio as an active musician?

I dont think he ever really gave up performing, and would certainly have performed more had he lived. i have a bookful of trev tales, but you will have to wait for the book, the plainsman is wonderful i agree,
some biographers of fairport and associates are so biased that the end product becomes imho v unfair.you have named one of them, I would say humphries is another and there are more,usualy i think these people become obsessed with one member above the rest. they cant help it bless em.

The bias against any Fairport line up that wasn't L&L, continues to frustrate me as a fan. "The Plainsman" is a perfect example...if it had come out on L&L I have no doubt it would be regarded as the classic song it is.

i think the poor old journalists are beginning to wise up, soon with any luck theyl catch up with the rest of us.

One may hope!

Just as an aside, while I am enjoying reading about past exploits (very much) I am personally far more interested in what is to come. My favorite record of yours will be the next one. Good on ya!

The Plainsman and Knights of The Road are two much neglected gems.  Both from the Rosie album of course, and both, I believe dating from post-Sandy Fotheringay sessions.

I know Peggy overdubbed bass onto these tracks, Swarb, but did you also play on these songs?

I'd love to hear live versions of Plainsman and Knights by the Nine lineup.  I'm sure they must be out there...somewhere!

Jules

yes i did

Hi Swarb,

Do you read Heylin's book about Sandy. I have not. I just wondered what you thought of it.

Pat

havent read it , but have heard comments etc, what do you think?

Here's a customer review on Amazon by one Jonathan Landry ... it's quite accurate IMHO, having read the book.

I was fortunate to get a copy of this nasty little book at the library, I'm glad I didn't spend money on this book.
The writing is horrid, with never ending sentences. One several occasions, one sentence went on for three or four lines, and contained easily a dozen commas. It's as if the author went out of his way to write in the most convoluted, confusing way humanly possible.

There really isn't anyone in the whole biography who the author seems to like, including and especially Sandy. The amount of hate and venom that the author spews towards Sandy's husband, Trevor Lucas, so awe inspiring that one would think that Trevor killed the author's cat. The author repeats a number of times how he is a talentless hack who only married Sandy because she was famous, not because he loved her. Granted, I don't think anyone would mistake Trevor for Richard Thompson, or even Simon Nicol (who I think is mentioned all of three times in the entire book); but I don't think he was the utterly talentless bozo the author makes him out to be. From what I've heard of him, he isn't that bad of a guitarist.

More seems to be written on how much Sandy drank, with whom she slept, how erratic and moody she was, etc., than anything else. It makes you wonder why the author choose to write a book on a person he doesn't seem to like one iota. Unfortunately, it's the only book out there on Sandy Denny. Which is the book's only remotely redeeming quality.

well now, isnt that something, why in gods name did he write the book in the first place. thanks a lot for the review. If I ever meet him, and I pray I do, there will be another obituary in the telegraph,and it wont be mine.That anyone could write stuff like that about Sandy, and Malign one of the sweetest people to walk this planet,and incidently, someone who did a tremendous job in looking after Sandy and cared deeply for her,and I know! beggars belief.No!, he wasnt Richard,But he was most emphatically Trevor,and was, a huge talent.And Sandy adored him. lets all wish him unremitting trots and warts on his chopper.

WELL SAID !! But warts on choppers?? lol Ouch :)

large festering ones i reckon, and barbed wire drawers.

Double ouch :)

Blimey Swarb, you're really on form this morning. ::) ;D

I hesitate to spring to the defence of Clinton Heylin but I don’t think we should condemn him on the basis of one extremely biased review. It’s true his book is very hostile to Trevor (as Martin Carthy complains in the Sandy DVD) and often badly written. But it’s not fair to say the author chose “to write a book on a person he doesn’t seem to like one iota”. The saving graces of his book are that he did a load of research in primary sources, knows her music well and, yes, loves her in his way (so far as you can love someone you never met). I believe he also did that book for a fraction of his usual fee (he usually publishes with Penguin) because he was so committed to the subject.

A second edition is coming out shortly, so prepare to have these arguments all over again!

Personally I was very upset by the book.

Not because I knew Sandy very well, but Heylin did seem to pick out the worst possible anecdotes and suppositions and fit them together into an unpleasant and uncomfortable whole.
 
The Trevor I knew from the days of Eclection was unrecognisable in the book.

And I was very hurt by some statements that he made about me and what other musicians had apparently said about me, which were subsequently denied.

If those bits go in his next book he will have a seriously angry me and an even more seriously angry manager to contend with. >:(

funny thins is , that jill reminded me he came here and interviewed me re the book, seemed in interesting bloke ,a war correspondent .Was about to return to Iraq as i recall. He must have ignored everything i said and gone is own or someone elses way. does anyone know if I am quoted in the book.it seems v strange doesnt it?

i am no scholar but the problem (i have) with his (Heylin's) book,and i have a couple of others (Dylan) is his (Heylin's) non stop (use) of parentheses (brackets) it does (my) head in.

 ::)

the index mentions you on almost 30 pages,haven't got time to check the content.

there is another Heylin book on Sandy....................

SAD REFRAINS
The Recordings of Sandy Denny

Are you sure you've got the right man, Swarb? Wasn't that someone else - maybe Fred Woodwood who did the book on The Woodworm Era (I think he was a Times journalist)? Heylin rightly attracts fire but I don't think he's ever been near a warzone.

Philip

got a correction to make ,the bloke i  thought intervieved mefor sandy  book was not the chap i thought it was.Was another far less nicer man jill assures me.thanks swarb

I remember Karl Dallas went to Iraq in the early days of the conflict there as a human shield; don't know if that's who you're thinking of or if I'm confusing the issue further!

Hi Swarb,

I've been convinced my time can be spent better elsewhere than reading this book. I'm not intersted in reading gossip especially when the subject can't defend herself/himself. Sorry if I offended.

Pat

Could it have been the occasional Newsnighter / Guardianeer, good egg &  Fairport friendly Robin Denselow?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3094345.stm

I've not read the book, and have no desire to, but I can say that mindless comparisons drive me batty.

Trevor Lucas is no Richard Thompson. So? Richard Thompson is no Trevor Lucas. He's no Simon Nicol, either, for that matter, who is no Snoop Dogg, who is no Rory Gallagher, who is no Ginger Rogers. Such idiotic comparisons are a sure sign of a hack writer.

Thanks to everyone here for saving me a few dollars I could better spend on new guitar strings.

Then, of course, there was Pam Winters' biography on Sandy, which Heylin's kind of replaced - at rather short notice even - because Helter Skelter was unhappy with the manuscript. This was only available for download from her site shortly after it had been rejected - and then, because of all kinds of rather nasty legal theats, taken off the internet. I do have Pam's bio; it's been years since I read both books but if memory serves me well that one was way, way more sympathetic. Maybe the publisher decided there wasn't enough sleaze in it to make the story more dramatic; maybe Pam was too much of a fan in their eyes. But Pam was respectful where Heylin digged up dirt; and really, what I most remember of the Heylin book was the utter disdain shown towards Trevor Lucas, who in this book really appeared to be the villain. Someone who by then had been dead for 11 years must've been an easy one to kick.

Clinton can be a pretty spiteful character.  My brother is a writer and they've crossed swords recently.  I won't bore you with details, but suffice to say that Mr Heylin isn't brimming over with compassion and love!

Jules

or full stops it seems

I got Pam's book in pdf form some time back; it's pretty good, certainly in comparison to Mr Heylin's approach. It's sad that it cannot be distributed publicly because of contractual issues.

i couldnt agree more,pam is lovely too.

And while we're talking about Trevor Lucas, let's celebrate what was great about the man.  For example his impeccable production of albums such as Fairport Nine and Sandy.  And how about his singing on Polly On The Shore?  What a beautiful performance!

Jules

you have my vote!

No offense to Jill, but Swarb, if you're ever looking for another wife, your recent compliment won my heart!

I'm very, very limited in what I can say here about any of what you're discussing. Psychically, and legally, this is touchy territory. (I don't get over to Talkawhile nearly often enough, perhaps because moving in these circles can be like traversing a minefield for me, emotionally speaking. A friend directed me here.)

I have not read Heylin's book on Sandy, by the way.

I do want to say (with all due respect to Swarb and others) that I don't think one should write only about people one loves or has some empathy for (though empathy helps).

Also: It takes a person with guts of steel to go digging around in the past, bringing up old hurts, unleashing demons, perhaps. Maybe that's one of the reasons I gave up music journalism altogether.

Also: Whatever happened beforehand, at the time of Sandy's death Trevor must have been in a horrible, horrible situation. I feel for him.

Finally: If I loved Swarb for nothing else, even if he were a right bastard and chopper-warts-worthy, I would love him for making the best coffee I ever had in the United Kingdom.

Maybe not everybody will help you, but some people are very kind.

hello Pam, hope yr well , think your comments pertinent, but the idiots should have gone with your book.

C'est la vie.

Speaking of Trevor: Which of his songs or performances do you think is most memorable?

("You" being Swarb--or anyone else out there.)

I could listen to "Polly on the Shore" till the cows had wings.

thats one of those questions I am afraid! I dont know, far too many smashers to say.However the ballad of ned Kelly is bonza aye?

Well said Pam. Once again I have not read the book but it seems that a lot of biographies tend to dig up the dirt because that's what sells. It's a sad commentary on the book buying public that have been so conditioned to reading National Enquierer that there seems to be an insatiable demand for the ''tell all'' book.



PS Polly on the Shore gets my vote.

Pat

Difficult.  Polly and Plainsman get mentioned a lot, and quite right too, but Iron Lion and Restless are both great as well.  And I love "Girls On The Avenue" from "The Attic Tracks"

Actuall, Trevor had one of those voices that I'd die for.  (Simon's developed one of them, too).

you know his speaking voice was exactly the same as his singing voice, and he never adopted a phoney accent when he sang,I live for the day when recognition is heaped on him, he was a born singer

I first heard him sing  on 'In The Early Days' with Eclection.

Such a wonderful deep voice and that bass line....made my ears curl ;D

Is that why you wear your hair over your ears? ;D

Are The Attic Tracks CDs still in print?  I'm missing that stuff?

Jules

Dear Swarb, just to keep on keeping high Trevor memory, I would like to recall that SWARB! box set features a beautiful song performed by Trevor from an early seventies album about australian songs. It's the only information I have read about that record.

Thanks

Paolo

P.S. years ago, when I was young, after a concert in duo in Italy with marvellous Carthy I jumped on stage and I said, hey Swarb, to shake your hand is a dream coming true, and you answered, oh, in this case I have to clean mina before!

You can still get it from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Attic-Tracks-1972-1984-Sandy-Denny/dp/B000024IJC/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1202807861&sr=1-10

Thanks Barry.  Is there just the one CD then?  Because there was a whole series of tapes, wasn't there?

What does the CD contain that hasn't been released elsewhere - does anyone know off the tops of their heads?

Thanks,

Jules

I loved the live 2nd AT tape - this was a Trevor solo gig from I think 1982 in Melbourne. I used to have all 4 tapes and had them sent to someone in the UK who was then on the FC mailing list who was to transfer them to CD; that was the last I saw of them. There was (well, obviously) a lot more on the tapes than what ended up on the single CD release. From memory, AT1 was a hotchpotch of various Sandy rarities, AT2 was a solo acoustic Trevor gig, AT3 was ... well, another hotchpotch I think, but more together than AT1 and AT4 were Sandy demos. While writing this I realize Michael Hunter is on this forum and he'll be able to tell a lot more!  ::)
I haven't seen/listened to these 4 tapes since sending them in good faith to one T.S. in the UK some 8 or 9 years ago. I'd love to lay my hands again on the live Trevor recording on Attick Tracks 2. It would make a pretty nice single CD in its own right.

Hey there:

This is all you need re AT Volume 1-4...

http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/sandy.denny/records/attictracks.html#at3

Jamie

Jamie's post re the link to the Attic Tracks came through as I sent this, so I won't repeat it!

Re the question of what the CD has that can't be officially found elsewhere...

A lot of the tracks were as rare as very rare things when the CD was first released, but have been released in other formats in the meantime (Free Reed box sets, extra tracks on original CDs etc).  However, I'm pretty sure all the Trevor Lucas ones (Girls On The Avenue / Breakaway / Town I Loved So Well / Forever Young) are still exclusive to this CD.  Well, Girls On The Avenue also appeared on a compilation of Australian rock "Long Way To The Top" because it was allegedly cheaper than using the original version by Richard Clapton!  But that's by the by.

Also the last 3 Sandy songs Gold Dust / Stranger To Himself / Who Knows are all from the final concert that came out as Gold Dust - but without the overdubs, so are "as is".

The cassettes are well and truly unavailable now - compiler John Penhallow saying so on the Sandy Denny list just a few weeks ago.  They were originally available for new subscribers to Fiddlestix.

Thanks everyone for the info.

I didn't even know that the Gold Dust concert had been overdubbed!  Mind you, I don't have that CD yet.  Was it extra instruments or audience noice?

Jules

as my memory permits , i think the guitar parts on gold dust were overdubbed by JD as the original tapes had deteriated
there may be more but i cant remember, i'm sure somebody else will

JD, Simon and Chris L did do the overdubs for Gold dust CD release.  JD doing the guitars and Simon and Chris doing some of the vocals.  I asked Simon for how that made him feel, he said he enjoyed it, they did it and then went for a curry afterwards.

I think Simon & Chris overdubbed some backing vocals

So it has the distinction of containing the only tracks with both Chris Leslie and Sandy singing on them.

Fascinating, I had no idea.

Jules

Just checked the inlay and it confirms

Electric and Acoustic guitars- Jerry Donahue

Backing Vocals - Simon Nicol and Chris Leslie.

Original Band
Sandy, Trevor, DM, Pat Donaldson and Pete Wilsher.

Purely for bragging purposes, I would like to point out that I have, just the once, actually been in the attic where the tracks were found.   ;D

Thank you for your attention.

Oh so it's a literal title then?  Rather than just a play on The Basement Tapes.  Were they in Trev's attic?

Jules

Literally in his attic, yes.  And also a play on the Basement Tapes.  :)

It is http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/lloyd/records/thegreataustralianlegend.html

It has Pegg,Lucas, Swarb, Alf Edwards on concertina and A.L.Lloyd.

A very nice version of Waltzing Matilda.

if you name the song I will try and give you some info