TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

Unless Simon's desire to see Fairport continue ad infinitum with continuing line-up changes comes to fruition, there will be a time, hopefully not for some years to come, when FC is no more.

If and when this day comes do you guys think Cropredy could survive as an ongoing festival or does its existence depend on the appearance of Fairport?

Ozzfest continues as a touring festival in the US even when regular headline, Ozzy Osbourne doesn't play. Could Cropredy do the same? And if it continues, who would still go..!?

Simon has already talked about this in an interview.  He likens FC to say, an established orchestra, a brass band or a football club.......the players change the orchestra/band/club keeps going.
When I get chance I will direct you to the interview.

The various members have enough musical rug rats between 'em to start up SEVERAL replacement Fairports.

 ;D

Also, Cropredy continued in 1980/81/82/83/84 despite fairport not officially being together.

But being there as a reunion none the less.

If they weren't there at all would it happen?

The brass band theory is nice to think will happen but is it likely..?

 Even if Fairport did hang up there boots as a peforming act, it would be great if they could still have a consultancy input into a festival - after all, very few people know better just what it takes to make a success in that particular environment  [;-)

Well said Ian. ;D

I think it is probably feasible for the festival to continue without Fairport but the audience would have to change along with the festival itself. It would no longer be Fairport's Cropredy Convention and it is clearly the avuncular presence of the band that has given it identity and consistency down the years for many of the attendees. I think the biggest question would be whether Cropredy itself would want to continue to host a more generic festival without the historic ties to the local community that the band and current organisers represent.

That's probably the most important point GubGub.

I suppose as people retire (Which I imagine must happen.) then newcomers will take their place. Fairport is more than just a band, it's an institution, and young whippersnappers like CL and RS can then become the elder statesmen on the band... and so on. I'm sure they'll end up at some point with one of the birds from Tiny Tin Pot Lady as a singer or as backing vocalists. I'm awaiting the day when RS returns back to his Jazz fusion roots and they recruit John Etheridge and start covering Soft Machine and the Mahavishnu Orchestra.

Nice thought Harbottle!  ;D

I've wondered this issue for ages. I appreciate that music is their lives but would Simon, Peggy & Gerry really want to be up there at the age of 70 plus - and would they physically be able to do it? (obviously I hope they will but being realistic....)

I suspect over the next 10 years there will be a few personnel changes and it'll go from there. The festival can definitley go on tho, and there's no reason why the marathon 3 hour FC session at the end shouldn't go on, but with the older members making guest appearances for their "signature" tunes, similar to the way they do now.

2017 the 50th Anniversary should be fun!  :)

Cropredy isnt like most festivals, its whole reason for existance is Fairport. so for me, no FC - no cropredy
i also couldnt see the band survivng Simon or Peggys departure

It survived Simon's departure before and there's always the Guvnor.

Chuck Berry was over here doing a festival this summer and he is 81.

they were all much younger then and Swarb was the man

Hmmm .... I can see it surviving Simon or Peggy's departure. For all the brass band/football team analogies, I find it harder to picture it surviving Simon and Peggy's leaving.

But they'll both have to one day, whether we/they like it or not. And I think the legacy they've both like most of all is for the festival to keep going.

I'll be going for as long as it's on anyway.

Fully agree.
Just a few years back I was wondering whether and where or rather to which festival I`d go if Cropredy stopped. But it would be quite different, wouldn`t it ?
Fairport - and I am talking the current line-up with all its faults and everything - = Cropredy.

I can specifically remember sitting in a farmyard, having breakfast, at Cropredy 1996.
We were talking to a couple and having exactly this conversation.

I don't seem to have got any older since then, so where's the problem?

I know not good form quoting one's own posts, but the above quote (which is not verbatim by the way) comes from an interview with Anil Prasad which is re-printed in the Cropredy 2006 programme.

I remember a conversation with a mate at school in 1971. "What do you mean Richard Thompson's left? That's it then, Fairport's finished."

I had a similar conversation when Sandy and Ashley left!   I'm ashamed that I really believed it and it took some time to get round to listening to Full House and before I eventually realised that this was good too!

...although it was a very different band and sound IMHO  (to follow Simon's analogy the knife changed its handles and blades and (to me) changed from fish knife to steak knife!)

I just hope it doesn't happen any time soon, if at all. To me MOTL at Cropredy = summer!

I find it interesting, this idea of bands carrying on irrespective of who's still a member. You see so many "official" lineups of bands with only one remaining muso from their heyday, at what point does it lose any sense of credibility? I guess Fairport were an interesting example of this, when Simon bailed out in the 70s there wasn't a founding member left, and yet who'd argue that "Nine" wasn't a genuine, worthy Fairport album?

This comparison with brass bands and orchestras probably doesn't bear close scrutiny, as in both cases the identity of the ensemble is so much stronger than any individuals. If the tuba player in the Black Dyke Mills Band departs that's hardly the same as Peggy being replaced on bass.

Fairport could carry on with younger replacements, but when age catches up with the punters will they also be replaced?

Interesting you should pick a non-original member as your reference point  :)

Indeed - and on occasions, Peggy has been replaced on the bass.

I would say the band remains a band as long as it keeps producing original material. If it exists only to play old material, then it loses its point altogether. That's when it becomes its own tribute act.

I think the question about the festival without FC - and FC's future is more about the punters than the band.

Would people be willing to pay top dollar to see a "second - or possibly third - generation" Fairport, made up of musicians in their 20s and 30s playing Fairport songs. Is "youngster" Chris Leslie "Fairport" enough to lead a band with younger musicians?

But as to Cropredy as a festival, I agree with Jim, no Fairport no festival.

David W

Things evolve though don't they? The Three Choirs Festival started in 1715, and it's still going two hundred and some years on. One day, in the far distant future, there may be no Fairport, but Cropredy may well have evolved into a different kind of event.

An event can survive it origins if it isn't resistant to change. . . but I agree, at the moment, a Cropredy headlined by someone other than FC would feel very odd indeed.

I think evolve is the important word. Punters are more likely to remain loyal if the changes are over a longer period of time. The Liege and Lief line up didnt change to the current one overnight!!

Cropredy is a music festival and always has been, to my understanding. I'd not be surprised if the organisers try to keep it going as members of FC retire etc since it is a commercially successful operation which undoubtedly pays its way.

Sentiment dictates that some FC presence be maintained, but, realistically, that can't go on forever. I don't see any signs of new blood entering the fold, this lineup is, after all, 10+ years old.

As far as the festival goes, I suppose it has to be asked what the festival could offer apart from Fairport were they ever to disband.

How much of Cropredy is about Fairport? Quite a bit!

How much is it about the setting - the field, the atmosphere, the village, canal etc? Also quite a bit

The crux point, I would suggest, is whether the setting and the combination of acts would be enough to give Cropredy a distinctive feel without Fairport.

There are quite a few medium-size festivals going on now that provide an alternative experience to Glastonbury and the like- Green Man, for example. For Cropredy to work without Fairport, I would suggest that it would have to consistently have a range of acts that match some of those festivals. Though there have been some great acts at Croppers over the years, I'm not sure that there would have been a consistently strong enough draw to match some of those other festival bills without the Fairport fans coming.

Tapping into different age groups - as with having the Levellers and Supergrass play, is obviously the way to go about getting in people that aren't just coming for Fairport and start to come for the festival, but it must be a difficult balancing act not to alienate the long-timers.

I hope that Cropredy without Fairport is a distant prospect. In the meantime I would be happy to see a consistently strong range of acts.

Non one's left for ages, though, have they. :)

This thread really makes you think about what it is that makes the 'Cropredy vibe'.

In my bones I feel it's all about Fairport from the moment you drive into Williamscott.

Am I being naive to have believed that the acts are all suggested by and approved of by members of Fairport?   ...Or is it really just a matter of who's available and who can be afforded?

This is probably why I remain glued to my chair for the weekend and never find the time to enjoy the village and surrounds - I assume that if a musician in Fairport considers the band good enough to play at 'their' festival then they deserve a listen.  I'd assumed that was why we got such an enjoyable and eclectic group of acts.  I've said elsewhere I didn't really think I wanted to go this year when I read the programme but gave it a chance and enjoyed even more acts than previously.

For me, take away Fairport (whoever they may be) and you make this just any old festival.

Actually if all this is in anyway coherent we could have a pretty good festival even if the members of Fairport were too frail to play.

That'll give us a year or two yet I hope.

A lot of the big bands from the 1940s are still going strong over here with no original members. I recently saw the Benny Goodman Orchestra and they were fantastic...maintaining the traditions of the original band.

I don't see any reason why Fairport couldn't do the same thing.

It's not just Fairport members who are subject to the ageing process - the audience is sure to change as time passes.... None of us are getting younger either.  How much will that affect the festival?

I think that bringing in such an eclectic mix of musicians is very cleverly helping to ensure the longevity of the event and as such I think a festival that celebrates the memory of a great band could be just as magical as the 'real thing' we currently enjoy.  It's a case of is the glass half full or half empty - I know how much there is in my pint pot!

To the future...long may the music continue!

I don't think it has to be a case of original members. Didn't Renaissance's second album feature a completely different lineup to the first? Yet this was the version of the band most people would regard as the genuine article. Perhaps it's to do with "serving in the trenches"? Peggy's long tenure with the band maybe qualifies him as Fairport's definitive bassist in the same way Martin Barre is Tull's definitive guitarist, but it's probably true that the band could carry on without him. Tull could also carry on without Martin, but it'd be a diluted and devalued band. I suppose it's all about singers, though, and without Simon Fairport would surely be hovering uncomfortably close to being an endorsed tribute act, would "Fairport Convention" be a brand or a band?

Sorry if this is drifting off topic, and it's not my intention to annoy anyone with these ramblings, I just find the issues of identity and continuity interesting.

Nah! Martin can be replaced! The only one who really can't be replaced is Ian ... sure, they could probably find someone who sounds like him ... but the songwriting genius would be very hard to replace (yeh- I can hear the detractors who say that piece has been missing for decase ... I just don't agree with them - the audience has changed, not the author)

True, but it's hard to imagine a more pivotal figure in a band than Ian Anderson. To most people he IS Jethro Tull.

Fairport, though, are almost the complete opposite. By the mid-70s there was no one left in the band who'd been there from the start, but songs like Rosie and the Hexamshire Lass are still viewed as highpoints.

The thing is, though, that when Fairport play Matty Groves you know Simon was there when they recorded it. Okay, he didn't sing it, but he was there. If they play Sloth you know Peggy played on the original recording. He didn't write it, but he was there. If these guys were no longer in the group, would that thread of continuity still be felt?

We all know that Ashley, Richard and Swarb heartily approve of Fairport's continued existence without them, but I get the feeling that without Simon the band would have crossed a line and become something fundamentally different.

Anyway, I don't think this is a likely scenario for some time to come, more power to their elbows.

At least two current members have sons who are musicians.......

..and another one has a daughter who is a musician....

And several past members also have offspring who are musicians too!

Maybe Cropredy will eventually revert to Fairport Convention being whoever wants to do it. Some may want to retire, but my impression is that most enjoy it far too much.

In sure the long term problem will be the audience and hence making a profit, but they don't show signs of weakening yet.

There is part of me that likes the belief that the Fairport Cropredy Festival will naturally come to an end. It seems unimaginable at the moment, yet was it only several years ago that many of us may have attended the festival thinking that it was just so. The time however was not right then and it isn’t now…what I’d not like to see is the situation where it appears just to go on and on and on. Some of us cannot always make it to Cropredy...yet in spirit we are always there...in my absence I know where my mind wanders to during that weekend in August.

The idea of, ‘Oh there is always next year’ may need to be questioned…What happens if the Fairport experience begins to be watered down, less members turn up and can naturally no longer can be part of it (for what ever reasons.) What would be terrible (I think it would be a little like loosing someone that you love in an unforeseen accident) that the one year I will not be at Cropredy and it will end with out telling any one in advance…so should one make every effort to be there every year in case one misses the moment? I don’t think absenteeism makes us any less a dedicated fan than those fortunate enough not to have missed a beat.  So what I would consider is that at some point there is an ending to Cropredy and we all know about it… Cropredy has years ahead of it I am sure.
 
The Festival for me and others (you just have to read this site) is a deeply personal experience…its about people. It’s not a Glastonbury where the festival I concur (with others) is the brand and all the acts are changeable…a pick and mix experience. Cropredy was/is founded upon different things I feel.

I am not certain that replacing actual Fairport members (who have recorded as the band) with their off spring is something that appeals to me... May be in five or ten years time a Fairport (tribute) act will come into being that is made up of some blindingly great musicians who can interpret the music of Fairport with originality and with youthful enthusiasm…formed out of a rediscovery if you like rather than to be held up as a nostalgic mirror to that which is still present. At the moment I’d rather see the authentic article…the moving shifting Fairport Convention. However this imaginary band of the future…you never know it could be a band made up of some of the Sons and the Daughters of Fairport members past and present but in all likelihood it will be made up of unknown stock. They (this unknown band may decide that they will do a yearly gig on some farm land at Cropredy.) will I be there...very unlikely, likewise if Cropredy becomes just a roots/folk/music festival. We have had and continue to have great times...its not quite thanks for the memories yet and long may it be so...I'd hate it to be a festival that is noted by year by year absences either through retirement, relocation, illness and other.

Also, Fairport lasted 1971-1975 with no original members, Swarb and Peggy looked after the band.

But do the get an audience of 20,000 camping for three days?

It's interesting, you know: I saw Fairport at Balloch about 4 years ago with Vo Fletcher on bass. What was absolutely, surprisingly clear is that this band was unequivocally still Fairport. Having said that, may Peggy not hang up his bass for many, many years to come!

Jethro Tull have played gigs in Europe this year WITHOUT MB on guitar - a young chap called Florian Ophalle who has played with Carl Palmer stepped in while MB was otherwise engaged.

No, but Julian Clary does.

Fairport isn't your run of the mill band -  in some ways they are more like an "Orchestra" in that they interpret other writers' material and also traditional tunes (And since CL joined, have their own songwriter in the ranks as well.) And they have had more lineups than Manchester's central police station.

Of course in the early days of Crops there was no Fairport (apart from at Crops).

The Festival grew revolving around the band and it's desire to play, they at first seem to have been surprised in the early days of the festival of the willingness of people to come out and see a band that did not exist.

I can imagine it returning to the idea of a reunion and  fading gently away as ability of band members and audience to perform became less, eventually becoming part of festival mythology. Then around campfires at other festivals some grey haired hold out to the old days of real ale and 45 minute Sloth performances would reach for the pewter tankard sigh contentedly and pass out.

I can't imagine Cropredy without the band and I don't subscribe to the brass band/orchestra idea, the Albion Band may have some claim to that but not Fairport, they have even during the 6 year hiatus been a working band sweating away on stage not the vision of one man or entity performing the works of others.

That's beautiful, in a tragic kind of way. And probably pretty near the truth.

Nail on the head here. And this is why the brass band theory doesn't hold water - because, and correct me if I'm wrong, a brass band plays mostly for member enjoyment rather than commercial necessity. Professional musicians, however honored they may feel to keep the Fairport name afloat, won't keep the band going if its costing them dough rather than making them any. And from the comments here, it seems it would hardly be prosperous.

So, being guilty of starting this rather depressing thread, and most are agreed we are nearing twilight so to speak - how long have we got?

PS: Any current member reading this and thinking of quitting - don't!
PPS: If Ric or Chris get seduced to join a newly formed Boy Band - Swarb, you're back in!



 

It is amazing how Ric & Chris are still thought of as the new boys. Chris has been in the band for 12 years, Ric for 23! I guess after that sort of tenure they would have a claim on carrying on the Fairport name if others decided not to continue. I think it gets forgotten though that Ric is actually only two years younger than Simon.

I am one of those who thinks that Cropredy is probably dependent on a Fairport presence if it is to retain it's character and Fairport need a physical link to their and their audience's history to be viable so in answer to the question of how much longer, I reckon if people stay healthy, 7 to 10 years at the outside. 2017 might be the obvious place to draw a line. Fairport will be 50. Peggy will be 70. Simon, Ric & Gerry will all be drawing their pensions...

But surely Cropredy actually is the pension...?   ;)

Indeed - the stones must be getting on for seventy and they do world tours. I'm sure the chaps could manage a reunion concert once a year for a while to come.

Actually, I know people who play in some of the Big Bands (more correct than "brass" band), and it is their full time gig. Not to say they don't work on the side as well---the life of a professional musician is very much a gypsy lifestyle. That said, I agree if it were a money loser they wouldn't do it.

So, the question becomes, can Fairport continue on without any original members? I can't imagine why not; as their original audience ages and passes on, younger people will come up who care more about the music than the personalities. I think the guys (and ladies!) in Fairport---past and present---have created something enduring that may actually be able to pull that off.

Time will tell (or show the wiser, if you like).

I didn't "discover" Fairport until 1989 when the line-up included DM and Maart, but I consider the current line-up to be FC as much as I did then so I'd have no problem with the odd changes in personnel - it adds fresh blood and stops them becoming stale. I miss Maart but I also love Chris's contributions so it's a swings and roundabouts thing.

I think the person whose leaving would have the most effect is Simon, mainly because it's his voice on so much of their music. I can't imagine anyone else singing Matty or MOTL at Cropredy. I know others have but for me it's Simon's interpretation of these songs that makes them classic Fairport.

Anyway, we will just have to wait! In the meantime I shall see you all next August.  :)  {:-)

Here's a possible option then:

If Cropredy is about celebrating fairport, as much as being a broader music festival, when the band is not a "viable" outfit anymore why not a once a year scratch band line up of the best young folkies / folk rockers around celebrating Fairport's music, with as many Fairporters as can and want to be involved in there as well.

I think it could work.

David W

So do I.   .....eventually....

But although I'm repeating myself, Cropredy is more than 3hrs on Saturday night.  We would need somebody pretty special to select a guest line up.

The lists on this board make a good attempt but the announced line up is always surprising (Well to me anyway!)  We could leave the selection to TAWers but would the village stand a month long festival... more to the point would my liver!?

They would need to maintain that eclectic but coherent list of acts that 'Fairport' achieve at the moment.

I'm finding this thread quite depressing but I can't resist reading it. Can't we just take it as it comes and hope for the best?

I personally think we should cross this bridge when we get to it and just enjoy Cropredy!

Huzzah! The voice of common sense. ;D

Yep.
And it's not gonna end soon anyway.

Was this on the DVD of 2007 - 'Fairport @ Forty'??  - I recall he said that 'Fairport was like a  lasagne with different flavourings = line ups!'
And on the same DVD Dave Pegg said he could never retire due to 'creditors' and would play on with a zimmer frame.
Conclusion - the current event is safe for five years or so and that is a good as you ever have in the modern world.

Let's not get too depressed folks, don't worry, be happy. Life is change, etc etc.

I remember the last steam train on BR disappearing down the line at Ais Gill in August 1968, and everybody was saying "Bloody hell, what do we do now?"  Fast forward to 2008 - a bunch of upstanding folks have just completed a brand new big Pacific main line steam loco, Tornado. ( Shameless plug http://www.a1steam.com/ )

Similarly, at Cropredy's "Farewell, Farewell" in 1979 everybody was looking round and going "B*gger, now what?" Well we know, don't we? Seriously, there's something rather culturally important about Croppers, let's hope it carries on somehow. I'll be there with me long white beard and incontinence pants (that'll be 2009 then  :D).  

 



  

Well YES have just annouced a tour with a new singer... A chap from a YES tribute act...!

Same here.

I don't see any reason why the festival can't continue long into the future, and indeed the same goes for Fairport.  The band may not have contained any original members in the mid-70s, but that didn't prevent them from releasing classic albums like 'Rosie' and 'Rising For The Moon'.  As long as any particular line-up stays true to the sound of the classic band, then IMO it doesn't matter whether it contains any original members.  That goes for any band, not just Fairport.