TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

Hmm, yes I'd find that a strange suggestion....

But Pete Paphides in today's Times suggests exactly that in his review (http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/music/live_reviews/article5074793.ece) of BellowHead's recent Bristol gig.

His last paragraph says....



Can't see it myself, but others may feel differently. Can Bellowhead be described as 'folk-rock'?

Personally, they're both great bands in their own right, but the comparison is a very odd one.

I'm not sure that the reviewer was suggesting they are folk-rock, I think it's more that Bellowhead are taking the English roots music to somewhere else and new, much as Fairport did in their time.

That's how I read it anyway ::)

They might be. If they'd been formed in the 1960's.

As it is, they are just the noughties' first Brecht/Weill/Waits/Folk Cabaret turn.

It's all been done. Ask Ute Lempe or Richard Thompson.

They need a unicycling baby black bear juggling live stoats, that would get the punters in, and I bet it's never been done to double jig time before.

"finish the job started by such illustrious forebears"

surely the true nature of folk music is that it is continually evolving and to "finish the job" would basically kill it.

I suspect its just a case of 'find a vaguely folk related label that the great unwashed can relate to'.

If it causes a few people who only own Liege and Lief to go out and catch a Bellowhead gig, then I can live with it.

What do you mean "the great unwashed"? Some of my best friends are unwashed. In fact some "folk" audiences have a rep for being challenged in that direction. (See the great "f**king soapdodgers" controversy). It's a bit of an obnoxious term to use really. (My dog Spot was a bit whiffy when he re-appeared out of the alley tonight.)

Please don't put ideas into their heads Rory. It was bad enough trying to find a strongman for them :o :o :o

And no, I don't think they are the new Fairport. They are just taking 'folk' music in a different direction, which was what I thought it meant as well, Jude.

To be quite honest I think they are getting, in sound, more like early Pentangle in some of their jazzier arrangements.

So far as the unwashed I can vouch for the fact that some of their audience need hosing down after a Bellowhead gig. You know who I am talking about;) ;) ;)

I've just read the article and I'm not really sure what the reviewer is getting at with that remark.  Perhaps trying to convince us he knows a bit about the folk scene?  I don't know his background I'm afraid so may be doing him a dis-service there.  I don't think of Bellowhead as folk-rock really - they're more like folk-jazz really when you consider the line-up.

We certainly don't want the "job" finished do we?

I need hosing down after BH gigs (especially last Friday's - oooh!)

You've been barking up the wrong tree - I look good in a faux leopard skin leotard - I'll shave me napper and grow the handlebar moustache to order, too.

Can someone explain how Bellowhead are radically different from say Brass Monkey?

Well, the live aspect to start with. They are amazing live; the energy the exhurt is much greater than that of Brass Monkey. Also, from what I have heard of them, which is very little I have to admit, BH are much more jazzy and much more funky than BM. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I went to see Bellowhead on Saturday night in Northampton.
They were (in my opinion) utterley awesome.
They have taken folk music/song and crafted it into a form of high (enjoyable) art.
I they have the ability to engage the listener with an amazing soundscape. I was very sceptical about them when they started, but i am a total convert, and i believe they have the ability to do for folk music what fairport achieved all those years ago
simon

I agree. I thought Fairport were awesome then (and still do!) and I think Bellowhead are awesome now.

OK awesome might be an overused word, but I was completely awestruck on Sunday.  ;)

I think this is an interesting question. Yes, like Fairport, they have crafted folk music into form, but Fairport did more than that; they brought traditional music to a wider audience, namely rock fans. Have Bellowhead really done that? I'm not sure they have. Whereas Seth Lakeman has brought it into the charts! is Seth Lakeman the new Fairport? Also, at that time Fairport were the only ones rockin up folk, but Bellowhead are not the only one's who are modernising folk, there are a whole host of others, so it's not really fair to single out one band.


Having said that, I love Bellowhead, they're one of my fav bands, and I don't really count Seth as folk  :D

All good points...

Is it April 1st already? Only 4 months to Croppers then.

The other point is a historical one.  The "early 70's"?  Hmmmm...weren't Fairport disintigrating rapidly in the early 70's?  To the point at which a couple of years in they (that's the two non-original members left with the name) were trying out an American singer and going all country-rock on us.... Not sure, even Fairport thought they were at the cutting edge of English folk-rock at that point...the mantle had moved rapidly on (or sideways) to Steeleye, the Albions et al....

weird question that one (well for me anyways)  for me simply Fairport sound like Fairport and Bellowhead sound like Bellowhead....i can't see it meself.

They were bloody magic at Shrewsbury Festival, which was the last time I saw them.

I think the 'differentness' is something to do with John B's voice and method of song delivery - absolutely unique. If I wasn't so busy today, I'd go downstairs and put a CD on :)

erm, no.
brilliant, but no.

If you read some of the new members comments on the S&B Forum and how they got there, you'll find they are doing just that.

Having heard all the BH recorded output, I'm afraid I just didn't "get it" - possibly a little too theatrical for me.  But when I saw the admittedly abbreviated Albert Hall Folk Prom performance, it started to make sense. Still not too keen on the Brecht/Weill/cabaret influences, though I do like the jazz influences.

Personally, and from a purely folk perspective, the best big band to date has been the Amazing Catsfield Steamers.

Surely the article just sets Fairport as a reference point - just about every folky band which has looked like gaining some sort of popularity has probably been referred to as the new Fairport.

Bellowhead draw on a broader range of traditions than Fairport and in many ways push the envelope even more than FC did when they unleashed Liege and Lief - but from the journalists point of view Fairport are the obvious yardstick.

David W

I was chatting with John Kirkpatrick a little while ago. I asked him what he thought about his son being in a Brass Monkey Tribute Band..!  ;D

There are similarities between the conception of Bellowhead and the conception of Brass Monkey - they were both formed by pairs of musicians known for their use of vocals, strings and squeezeboxs. Both pairs were staunch interpreters of the English Folk Tradition and both realised that folk could sound good with brass involved, though none were brass players themselves.

The difference is that Brass Monkey's concept stopped there - folk music played with brass instruments. Bellowhead went on to add percussion, bagpipes, woodwind and a string section that is even bigger than the brass section. Then they took their sound off in a jazz/world/music hall direction which currently sits many miles away from their folk-based inception. I doubt you could ever confuse the sound made by Bellowhead with the sound made by Brass Monkey...

Cheers

Nick

Well, yes, up to a point. In the early 70s (the period cited by the review) Fairport were by no means the only band rocking up folk. They may have been the first (although there's an argument for Pentangle having got there first), but Steeleye, Horslips, Dando Shaft, Trees, Gryphon, ISB, Alan Stivell, etc etc. were all around. East of Eden's Jig-a Jig got into the singles chart, and Angel Delight was a chart album. At the time it felt like a whole lot more than just Fairport.

No of course Bellowhead are not the new Fairport  ::)  BUT there are similarities in that both are/were groundbreaking and responsible for introducing a new audience to traditional music.

The article says  "On this form, Bellowhead may be able to finish the job started by such illustrious forebears" not that they've taken over from FC.

They'll never finish it tho - there will be another band in a few years time doing something different and new (folk/rap fusion anyone?) that will take everyone by storm. Such is the nature of the beast.

For what it's worth the Bellowhead gig on Sunday was the best I've seen them and one of the best gigs I've ever seen. They really were spectacular.

The costs of gigging could also be an issue for a band of this size.  They're a great band to see live but less appealing on record, to my personal taste.  That could be a limiting factor in their long-term appeal and success, I think. They're not the new FC for sure - I agree with the earlier posting that just as FC were once part of a bigger 'folk-rock' scene, so are Bellowhead today.  Also, FC's longevity is in part because they're cheap to run and have been willing to keep it that way for all this time. Bellowhead are young (hence cheap) but for how long? Hard to say.

Martin

It seems to me that Fairport were a rock band that played folk music even though Swarb had been involved in folk the whole idea was to turn it up and rock out.

Bellowhead are well an insane vaudeville/folk/jazz/deranged circus event and sometimes they hurt my ears. My suspicion is you have to see it and I doubt that I ever will but I would if they came over here.

In short no, Bellowhead are not the new Fairport but I'm not entirely sure what they are, maybe the new Doors as they seem to be a great lounge act at times.

my thoights exactly, unless they are going to dharge stadium prices for gigs they arnt going to get rich with a band that size
but fair play to them for giving it a go

no way are bellowhead the new fairport, they are OK live but their music does not appeal to such a large audience.
There will never be a "new fairport" because they would not survive in todays music industry. no promoter or agent would take a chance on anyone that different like they did in the 60's/70's.

blame the likes of simon cowel and his minions for that

how cheap do you think cheap is, martin, cos i have been told and i do not think they are cheap at all!!

Agreed - I've been told too and while understable for 22 legs, it's defionitely not 'cheap'

I would argue that Bellowhead have the potential to appeal to a much broader audience than Fairport, FB. Their musical remit is broader and more importantly there a many more outlets for music now than in previous years - more opportunity for people to hear them.

The question of longievity is an interesting one. I don't think they will last as they are as long as Fairport ... But then Fairport seldom lasted more than 1 album with the same line-up. Bellowhead actually have more opportunity to change their line-up than Fairport have. Most members of Bellowhead have had stand-ins at some time and I'll bet few have noticed when this has happened (I think Jon B and Benji K are the only 2 of the 11 who've played every gig.) They can in theory become what Simon has often touted for Fairport; an institution whose actual members matter less than the idea of the group as a whole.

On the money front, it's long been shown that (Billy Connolly excepted) Banjo players don't drive Porsches. Each member of Bellowhead plays in at least one other band and most if not all are involved in other areas such as session work, teaching, etc. Bellowhead might be seen as a sideline...

And Neill, I believe they may be on their way over to North America next summer...

Cheers

Nick

Well as long as they keep their options open for the UK in the middle of August ...  :-\

C'mon, journos always refer to things as "the new..." - Private Eye run a column called "The Neophiliacs" picking up on this.

Not that I'm really knocking the reviewer for it. They only get a column inch or so to summarise a whole evening's music, to people who've never heard of the band in question. It's not surprising, therefore, that they reach for easy comparisons. Anyway, it's fun. When we were kids the Inarazzes used to play a game called "People who look like people". When you spotted a person walking around who looked like someone off the telly, you'd point it out, and if the other two agreed, you'd get a point. Obviously the lack of an impartial referee meant that nobody ever won, but it passed the time while waiting for mum. But I digress.

Are Bellowhead playing anywhere near Newcastle soonish? Just wondered.

SIAR    

If you mean 'upon Tyne', they played the Academy there last April. If you mean 'under Lyme' then they've just finished touring around Buxton, Derby, Manchester, etc and are playing Birmingham on 16th December. Nothing else listed as upcoming in those areas though. You'll have to head for Wales where they're doing a tour in January.

Cheers

Nick

And just how young is young? They're probably about ten years older than Fairport were in 1970.

I can't imagine any 11-piece band being cheap.

Phew that was close!

No need to worry Nick, they've gone past. You can come out of your soundproof booth and resume your normal listening habits.

We'll convert you NickReg. One day, we'll convert you.  ;D

And then you'll be as mad as the rest of us!  ::)

I can't really see the comparison. I'm not particularly a fan but when I saw them live, based not so much on the music but on their ambition and what I think they are trying to achieve by fusing unlikely elements together, I thought it was sort of comparable to The Albion Band more than Fairport.

Thanks Nick

I'll just have to keep eyes peeled as I am in the Tyne version of Newcastle. The Sage apart, I never think Newcastle is particularly folky; the Carling's bill from now till Xmas seems to be made up of tribute bands!

SIAR
   

Teenage girls squeal when JB walks on in a manner not quite as vulgar as by Beatles enthusiasts, but they squeal just the same :)

 ::) and some not so teenage.  ;)

I know where you're coming from LadyD....... ::) ;D

:) http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/group.php?gid=11346423419

My mum (who isn't a folk music sort of person) said after the gig I took her to "Who's the tall handsome one? Can I get a signed photo?"

I agree, people like him are polluting the music scene with talentless clones.

He does have a certain presence, doesn't he? Ladies of a certain age, eh?  ;D

They all seem to have an effect on somebody!

To just address the cost of booking Bellowhead. In my experience they charge a fair fee that is on a par with equivalent acts (in standing, not in number of members).

Yes, for a small venue they would be expensive, but so would other acts that draw the same sort of audience.

I have a friend who is trying to hire them for a fund-raising event and has been quoted something in the region of a few thousand. I don't know if that's just for them to play and if there would be other charges on top (eg accommodation, transport) but I rather get the impression with the t'heads that they're not there for the money.

I can't wait to see them again in January. Not long!

When she said it I didn't know whether to be pleased because she might take me to more gigs or disturbed as she's old enough to be his mum.  :o

*thinks in head* if I saved a pound a day it would take me a very long time to afford for my own personal concert...don't think they'd fit in my house let alone my front room  ;)

could i just stick my neck out and say i think it is wrong on every level for specific fees to be mentioned relating to any band, whether 'famous' or not, and i personally think that post should be removed.

abby

I don't see what possible harm it could do as it's easy enough to find these things out, but to save problems/offence I've altered my post. If anyone wants to delete it please go ahead. I'm used to it!

cheers bridg x

Here’s my twopenneth, for what its worth….

While all the musicians in Bellowhead are undoubtably good in their own right, and in their own bands, I find the sum less than the parts. For me, it sounds like a session, maybe the Goose and Firkin, in the Borough, twenty years ago. Good, but twenty years old!

Nick makes some points worth reviewing here..



Percussion.. I remember Martin Brinsford playing frame drum and tambourine

Bagpipes… Giles playing on the CD Burlesque adds nothing groundbreaking to the CD. Only opening two numbers, it is lost (intentionally?) in the mix thereafter. It sounds like an instrument he plays, rather than one he can play. They make no use of the bagpipes modal qualities, or its unique playing and gracing style.

Brass Monkey’s music seems to have been as much about what was not there, spaces, as what was. Isn’t JK’s playing Jazzy? Doesn’t MC’s vocal style pull you, stretch you, goad you, lift you up, and throw you down?  Isn’t “Fable of Wings” still modern, and haunting?   Isn’t “Watermans Dance” still electrifying?

 Bellowhead’s music seems very full on, using all their toys at once. I feel this has been done better before, by the Committee Band, Albion band, Moving Hearts, and others. Everybody ends up playing on every track/ dance. No dynamic, just volume, sorry.

The use of novelty percussion would be OK every now and then, but I feel that there is just too much of it. This, added to over complex arrangements, hides the quality that must be in the band.

I don’t like dissembling bands. I do try to find good in all music, but this, for me, is just "folk" music with knobs on. Where are the haunting spaces, the sense of the lost, or joy of the found?

Are they the new FC? No.
The new Steeleye Span?  No.
The Emperors new clothes……?



Dave

My comments were purely to attempt to answer the question from Mr Cat:



I looked for points that indicated why Bellowhead were different from Brass Monkey. I deliberately did not make any attempt to present one band as being better or worse than the other because that's down to personal opinion and everyone here already has their own one of those. Instead I just looked for points that addressed the question Mr Cat posed.

I take the point about Martin Brinsford playing percussion in Brass Monkey - I didn't mention that because I didn't recall percussion the last couple of times I saw them (OFF 2008 and Cropredy many moons ago). The other points I made still stand however: Bellowhead have a far greater array of instruments in their arsenal and a far greater spread of musical styles in their repertoire. You cannot confuse the sounds of the two bands.

If I were to comment about what I feel is "groundbreaking" about Bellowhead, I would put it in terms of the impression they have made on the folk music community and on the public-at-large. As I said above, everyone here has an opinion about Bellowhead and I think that is great. Whether they like the band or not is not important to me. What is important to me and what I really think is great is that people are talking about them! And I believe it is on the back of their presence that people are talking about folk music in more favourable and less derogatory terms than has been seen in literally decades. And that talk is not confined to here on Talkawhile or other folk-specific places. Bellowhead are quite clearly at the forefront of a resurgence in popularity of folk music across the country. They play to big crowds at folk festivals; that's one thing that indicates their own success within their own genre. However it's something else that they are now packing out venues more associated with indie, pop and rock music and it's something else again that they're getting noticed by music communities that are far removed from their origins. Why were they chosen as the artists in residence for the SouthBank Centre? Why were they chosen to front the first Folk Night at the Proms in the Albert Hall? and why did the BBC choose to televise that concert ahead of many other Proms concerts this summer? I don't know how or why either of those things came about but clearly they are making an impression!

Folk music is cool right now and I put that down largely to Bellowhead. It's not entirely down to them - Eliza's been cool for a long time, Seth is clearly pushing rock-star status, Imagined Village have turned a lot of heads and there are others I could mention - but I would not deny the fact that Bellowhead have had a huge impact and they will go on to have a bigger impact in the time to come.

Cheers

Nick

Nick,

all you say above is true. I also feel that they are doing a great job, and helping to make folk music more popular than ever.

Mine is  personal view, i just don't get it! :( Maybe i'm just old and jaded!

However, the fact that so many others do, and are flocking, and bringing mates along is great for all of us in the Folkasphere.

All the best,

Dave

Bellowhead and Brass Monkey are two vastly different things.  Not sure why, but although I've given BM 2 shots live to impress me and have listened to at least one of their CDs, it just bores me.  It is folk with brass, whereas BH feel a more cohesive unit.

In terms of money, one promoter who I know says that to have BH would mean a doubling of their usual ticket prices. Also, a lot of bands/acts within the folk world work on a percentage basis rather than a fixed fee, so that even if there is a bad showing, the promoter never actually makes a loss; obviously that isn't guaranteed on a fixed fee basis.

And what do you know - one of them's playing our local at the end of the month with her new band.  

Watched Bellowhead at Southwell this year and throughly enjoyed it. Of more interest however was the audience in that a)There was a lot of them b) There was a broad age range c) They stayed in the marquee and there was abuzz in the air. For these reasons alone they NEED to exist for the future of the festival scene. As for them being the next FC? BH success at festival venues is because they are like the desert in a large meal, sinful and more-ish whereas perhaps FC can provide the whole meal, soup to cigars! Furthermore time will tell if such as large group can stay the field and stay together, musicians being what they are. In the meantime however all power to them.  ;D

It really irks me when people call what I do a novelty. Can't you see that this is deeply serious and highly skillful work requiring years of training? Now, if you know how to make an effective SPLAAANNGGG! without holding up a really heavy cast iron pan, or how to get a good CRRRAWWK! out of anything but a cutlery holder filled with forks and knives, please do tell us - we're dying to know ;)

And every single tink and clang is precisely planned isn't it Pete?  ;)

Welcome pflood.

How many pans did you have to try before you got the exact SPLAAANNGGG you were looking for?

And just as important, used or brand new? ;D

This is all very confusing.

No wonder I couldn't find Matachoo-choo, their new long playing gramphone record, at my local emporia.

I should have looked under the Fs.   Or maybe the Ns (New Fairport, New Seekers, New Order).

Dem and blast.  :-X

Welcome pflood - probably the country's hardest working and most innovative percussionist!  ;) ;D

Isn't pflood the Welsh word for a sudden torrent of water? :P

Surely that would be fflood?

fflydd I think!

I have just found this thread - soz! Fairport, love them. CD's in the car, study, lounge, toilet, utility room, bedroom etc, etc. Old favourites that can fit into any mood and they have their place in life. Groundbreaking in their time and continue to be master craftsmen.

Bellowhead are a different band with a different type of vibrancy. There is something about a Bellowhead performance that stirs the loins and makes you want to throw caution to the wind, run wild and eat pork scratchings and drink fizzy cider. I much prefer still cider as it hits the spot, just like Fairport. However, there is always room for something new to tempt the palate.

Signed - poorly,  having had far too much fizzy and still cider last night together with pork scratchings and scampi fries. Does anyone know what the gall bladder does because I don't think mine is doing what it should?

Odd analogy Cackey!!

Bellowhead certainly stirs the loins, but even t'heads will never make me eat a Porky Scratching!!  :o

I'm seeing them later, I'll let you know later if I have any fizzy cider cravings  :)

no.. they will not be the new fairport...

yeah with ya there Sam......maybe its just cause that Bellowhead are right for right now and are bringing folk more out into the open because of its fusion factor and getting a new crowd following and young people are into um....no different to some of you back in the sixties when you discovered Fairport when you were discovering new music surely

just the way of the times and admit i'm more of a bellowheader than a fairporter...end of the day they're both champions of folk,which can't and never will be a bad thing  :)

Well said......... :)

Just a small interjection: Bellowhead aren't traditional "folk". Having said that, neither are Fairport.

I consider this a good thing.

I can't wait to see Bellowhead live...  Haven't managed it yet, hopefully sometime over the summer.  I've been rather underwhelmed by their albums but I reckon they'd have potential live.

A bit like Fairport in that respect really - several songs that I didn't really like from the album have become firm favourites after I've heard them live.  Whether it's the introduction or just the live atmosphere I don't know, but it definitely makes a song come to life.

And I reckon seeing Bellowhead live could do the same for them.  I'll let you know... ;)

Seeing them live is an experience not to be missed!

Anna, Bellowhead are playing the Queen Elizabeth Hall at Southbank Centre next Saturday evening, billed as a Dirty Weekend with Bellowhead, tickets priced £15 + booking fee.
I just had a quick check of the Southbank website, it would appear there are just 14 tkts left, so if you fancy it you'll need to move swiftly.
http://http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/music/productions/a-dirty-weekend-with-bellowhea-44044

:(  Shame, I'm already busy next Saturday, got a friend's 40th.  On Valentine's mind you.  If it wasn't that he's coming over from the States specifically to celebrate with his Limey chums I'd have at least 2 better things to do!

What about Cambridge the next day?

Probably a bit far to travel really, but thanks for the suggestion Ollie.  I'm sure I'll catch up with them sometime. :)

I totally agree Shelley. I was never into music in the same way as many of you here and on other forums. Instead photography was a passion of mine but thanks to being 'persuaded' to see Bellowhead in Pontardawe a few years ago that all changed. Even my parents who are in their eighties enjoy them (just bought them the DVD) after seeing them at the Folk Proms last year on TV. Not sure if I can get them to a gig though ;D

For those who don't know of me, this is the result of what happened from going to see them on that fateful night:

http://www.musicfestivalphotos.co.uk/

and here is a link to a 'few' Bellowhead photos:

http://www.musicfestivalphotos.co.uk/Bellowhead


Thanks to Cazzer for dragging me along that night and to Mark Whyles and Bellowhead for changing my direction in life and to you on here and the Belowhead forum for being such good friends. See you around at a gig or festival :)

If there is a downside to this, it's that I no longer go out running with the local club and have put on weight but I put that down to festival food ;) ;)

If you want to keep track of where Bellowhead are playing, keep an eye on http://www.brightyoungfolk.com