TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

Some of you may have heard rumours of a forthcoming TV series on British women musicians. Kate Bush, Dusty Springfield, Marianne Faithfull, Amy Winehouse and (so we thought) Sandy Denny. My mole on the inside tells me that Sandy has now been dropped from the series, on the grounds that she’s “not famous enough” and viewers of BBC1 (where the series will air) have “never heard of her”. It’s a shame, whichever way you look at it, as filming had already begun on the Sandy programme and this would have been a unique opportunity to place her in rightful company whilst bringing her to the widest audience.  

So much for Mark Thompson’s announcement last week that he was beefing up the Beeb’s commitment to the arts. The other programmes will still go ahead, their subjects being sufficiently famous.  

This is hugely disappointing news. >:(

How can they place Marianne Faithfull above Sandy Denny in the "famous" stakes? Okay, Faithfull was well known - but her musical output was (I think) pretty limited. More famous for the company she kept, I would have thought. :P

Bah!

bastards

Is there anything we can do to rectify this?  :-\ :-[

Knowing how these things usually pan out, I think not much Anji  :(.  We could try some of petition with reasoned arguements, lord knows there is enough accumlated knowledge here about Sandy and Fairport to present a solid case.  Trouble is finding the time to do it.  Any volunteers?

"not famous enough?"  ???....................maybe too talented compared to some  :-X >:(

Petition 'em to do the documentary, interview all relevant associates and put it out on BBC4 where it will be more at home...it will eventually get a repeat showing on BBC 1 or 2...it took them ages to repeat "RT - A Solitary Life" on terrestrial !

If someone can tell me the name of the producer/decision maker, I will write to him/her.

I used to be the beeb's b**k manager in the late 80's, in one of my previous lives ;D, not that that counts for sod all, nor would I mention it!

It's absolutely bloomin' ridiculous!

 >:( >:( >:(

What about writing straight to the DG Malcolm?

No, Dave. He would never get to see it, let alone read it, whoever he is. More politics in that organisation than at Westminster.

Er....at least 17 studio albums over 43 years[Just checked Wiki...I think its 19 or 20] "Pretty Limited"?  Hmmmm, don't think so........ ;)

I can understand the indignation about this, and I'd love to see the documentary made too, but surely one can understand the reasoning behind it...the producers just want their programmes to be watched by the largest audiences imaginable.  It's the Amy Wineglass one that amuses me.  Now she does have a limited musical output, however talented a singer (and she is, or could be) she is....

A duty to educate, I think that was the original remit wasn't it?

Do we know the arsehole who came up with this decision?

Well it would be even more disappointing if they had gone to the extent of interviewing people and filming things and then deciding not to use any of it...that does frequently happen ::)

Send him to manage ITV's football coverage...  :)

Seriously, will the BBC ever take English folk/roots seriously? There was a short item on the Breakfast Show this morning about The Morris Movie... the piece itself was OK, but I thought there was a distinct sense of "presenters trying to keep faces straight" before & after it.

And (much as I am enjoying it), BBC4's Folk America season seems to have much more air time than our own indigenous (folk) music gets.

The worse part is that had it stayed on BBC4's schedule, lot's of people who have never heard of Sandy would still watch it because of the nature of the people who watch BBC4, period.

Now it's been switched to BBC1 and Sandy has been cut out we will no doubt be treated to watching Amy smoke crack, along with tiresome Marianne Faithfull mars bar stories (rather than looking at her fantastic output since her late '70's reinvention).

It wouldn't surprise me if the programme will have those dreadful comedian types on there talking about the artists a la those "500 best ever song" shite programmes.

J

(a very angry Jamie73)

I think that's what did happen, Jude. I believe they recorded interviews with the artists taking part in the tribute concert in December. They were certainly filming in the foyer when I left the QEH.

BBC4 is the obvious home for such a programme. I'm sure that a channel that has devoted hour-long documentaries to Alma Cogan and Julie London, not to mention an entire evening to Nana Mouskouri (!), could find room for this.

(an angry) Philip  >:(

My thoughts exactly. Sandy has one of the most fascinating and emotive life stories of any musician. I was bought "Sandy Denny: Under Review (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sandy-Denny-Under-Review/dp/B000G73Y96/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top)" for my birthday last year, and I doubt if the BBC could have topped some of the interviews and footage; but they should have bloody well tried.

BBC4 should push to use the interviews and footage already shot to make up an hour of their broadcasting time.

Totally agree - her story is fascinating itself, let alone being one of the most talented singers and songwriters of the 20th century.

J

The problem is that all of the other singers have a much higher profile in the wider world than Sandy and although being included in this series would obviously raise her profile, documentary makers who have been commissioned to make the films will prefer to go for singers with an already high profile (hit singles, world wide hit albums, high profile scandals etc), so that the films can be sold worldwide maybe..

However, if interviews and filming have already taken place then those recordings will probably be put quietly aside for use in the future.. :-\


  

What we need is a clever 'hook', I'd live with a dodgy headline if it meant the show got a fair airing. Someone around here must have some connections....

I love Sandy Denny,she is my favourite by a country mile and i will be writing to the BBC to complain,they always answer by the way.

However,there is no need to be nasty towards Marianne Faithfull over it,she is well worthy of a place in this type of thing as far as i am concerned.

[/quote]
Er....at least 17 studio albums over 43 years[Just checked Wiki...I think its 19 or 20] "Pretty Limited"?  Hmmmm, don't think so........ ;)

I can understand the indignation about this, and I'd love to see the documentary made too, but surely one can understand the reasoning behind it...the producers just want their programmes to be watched by the largest audiences imaginable.  It's the Amy Wineglass one that amuses me.  

[/quote]



I just knew that remark would be pounced upon... :P

I didn't bother to "Google" Ms Faithfull's musical output, because even it was enough to fill the Albert Hall, it would be of no interest to me.

I have no idea how many albums Sandy produced either - but I know that I prefer quality over quantity.

(Grrrr! I hate it when I don't do the quote thing properly)

I make no secret of the fact that I am a huge Denny fan, but the pulling of her programme by the Beeb obviously has to take into account many factors. Marianne Faithfull is still alive, there is an abundance of footage of her, she has been an Icon for many years now and has an extensive back catalogue of material. The sales of her music obviously far outweighs Sandy's sales and no one can deny her worldwide fame, which would therefore attract viewers . . . and isn't that what it's all about for television programme makers. I find an almost similar parallel in the Transatlantic Sessions whereby regulars Emmylou Harris, Mary Black, Cara Dillon constantly appear singing songs. Yet the extremely talented duo Chris While and Julie Matthews are overlooked, even though they are equally as talented as those people mentioned. I doubt as well, that a Denny documentary would or even could give a true account of her time with us, after all Trevor Lucas has since passed away. Take heart in the fact that we don't need a programme to remember her truly wonderful ability as a singer and performer, as her music still lives on.
Carolyn   :-\

Hi All,

I organized the Sandy Denny tribute at the southbank in December, so obviously I was very upset when the BBC told me they were dropping Sandy from the programme; I must stress however that the team actually making the programme did not want to drop her, understanding her importance, but they were overruled by the powers that be…
However, as Philip states, there is surely room for a Sandy documentary on BBC 4 and hopefully this will happen- especially since the programme makers had already filmed a considerable part of the Sandy segment.

I'm surprised at the response to Marianne Faithfull on here- whilst Sandy is undoubtedly the best british female singer songwriter, I in no way feel it inappropriate for Marianne to be showcased- indeed she should be. It has been to long that Marianne's early history has overshadowed her musical output which has been remarkably consistent over a forty year period; particularly since her re-emergence in the late 70's. Whilst I understand that her vocal style is not to everyones taste, the quality in her work is not in doubt: Marianne has emerged as one of this countries great lyricists, and furthermore her albums have almost always been met with universal acclaim in the music press. Indeed as an example, her last album 'Before the poison' garnered the following praise:

Q mag The worthiest addition yet to her legendary status.

NME Something very much like a classic

MOJO A classic work...together [her collaborators] have created a near perfect, and wonderfully paced, stage for the singer

Uncut Probably the most potent album she's made since Broken English.

The Telegraph Faithfull's voice and wistful lyrics make an indelible mark on this haunting collection.

These reviews are quite unusual for an artist so far into their career. Also Marianne has recorded a number of folk songs since her early 60's recordings, working with The Chieftans, Van Morrison and even covering Sandy's Crazy Lady Blues. On her forthcoming album, she also records a nice version of Flandycke Shore with the McGarrigles. An artist like Marianne with 23 albums over such a long career is certainly worthy of mention- it is surely Winehouse with only two (admittedly good albums) that is most unworthy of inclusion, although no doubt she will feature prominently in the publicity, and so justify her inclusion after such a short career.

best


Andrew

I was not aware of this series but.....

SANDY.....NOT FAMOUS ENOUGH ??? ???

 >:(

In fairness, I can see their point.  Yes, we all know about Sandy, as we're folkies!

Most people haven't heard of her, and those that have will probably say something along the lines of "Wasn't she the girl on the Led Zepp song"? Yes, that was an amazing accolade for her (i.e. the only (female?) collaborator ever with LZ, but unfortunately, for most people, that's it.

They aren't making this series for folkies but for the general public.

 :(

But before I'd heard of Sandy, I'd never heard of Sandy, but I am pretty glad that I did hear of her.

Whatever happened to public service TV >:( >:(

 I believe John Birt assassinated it about twenty years ago

Oh do grow up folks, these kind of decisions are made all the time. The disrespect shown to Sandy is easily equalled by some of the comments here about the artists who will be featured.

WIth a bit of luck and a fair wind, the material will be used at a later date.  Contacting BBC4 and asking who might make such a one-off and offering co-operation might not go amiss. Especially if Swarb and Simon could take part (if, indeed, they haven't already).

Cynically, what is needed is an ad campaign featuring her music. After all, Nick Drake got his documentary after such a "break". So start writing to watch manufacturers!  :o

If I grow up, I'll comment.
Don't hold your breath though. ::)

I am sure one day there will be a quality Sandy documentary. Liege & Lief continues to be applauded daily, plus her solo albums are selling better than ever. I can't really think of anyone else whose music dates so little as time goes by.