Title: Other Matties Post by: Will S on May 25, 2009, 08:32:05 AM I was recently listening to April’s edition of Folkcast (yes, I’m a little behind the times!) and it started with a version of Matty Groves sung by someone called Mark Shillaker. I know nothing of Mr Shillaker beyond that one song, which was a very competently sung and performed version of Fairport’s Matty.
This brought back to me some thoughts I had a number of years ago when I was at an Eden Burning concert where they too, performed Matty Groves, in the ‘Fairport version’. My first thoughts were that it seemed to me something of a cheek to perform a song so closely linked to another band, in an arrangement that was very similar to the original. Reflecting upon it, I wondered why I should have reacted like that. After all, Matty Groves is a traditional song, not an original Fairport composition, and can’t be said to ‘belong’ to them any more than any traditional song belongs to an artist that performs it. Yet there still seemed to me that there was something there that made me a little uneasy. Yes, Matty is a traditional song, and Fairport’s version is their own selection of words from the original ballad (or ballads – I understand there are plenty of versions in the tradition) and choice of tune to go with them. I would have no problem with anyone making their own arrangement of words and music to come up with something that didn’t sound like they were copying Fairport. So I guess it comes down to the same question as that of cover versions of other people’s songs. Is there any merit in a cover version that is basically the same arrangement as the original? If you are at a concert where someone plays a straight version of ‘Smoke On The Water’, for example, what are your feelings? Do you have the same sort of feelings as me about Matty Groves, or am I being too precious about this whole question? Should I see it instead as an ‘hommage’ to Fairport or whoever (even if the band say nothing about it being that)? I'd like to hear what other people think. So over to you... Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: MarkC on May 28, 2009, 02:04:40 AM I was recently listening to April’s edition of Folkcast (yes, I’m a little behind the times!) and it started with a version of Matty Groves sung by someone called Mark Shillaker. I know nothing of Mr Shillaker beyond that one song, which was a very competently sung and performed version of Fairport’s Matty. This brought back to me some thoughts I had a number of years ago when I was at an Eden Burning concert where they too, performed Matty Groves, in the ‘Fairport version’. My first thoughts were that it seemed to me something of a cheek to perform a song so closely linked to another band, in an arrangement that was very similar to the original. Reflecting upon it, I wondered why I should have reacted like that. After all, Matty Groves is a traditional song, not an original Fairport composition, and can’t be said to ‘belong’ to them any more than any traditional song belongs to an artist that performs it. Yet there still seemed to me that there was something there that made me a little uneasy. Yes, Matty is a traditional song, and Fairport’s version is their own selection of words from the original ballad (or ballads – I understand there are plenty of versions in the tradition) and choice of tune to go with them. I would have no problem with anyone making their own arrangement of words and music to come up with something that didn’t sound like they were copying Fairport. So I guess it comes down to the same question as that of cover versions of other people’s songs. Is there any merit in a cover version that is basically the same arrangement as the original? If you are at a concert where someone plays a straight version of ‘Smoke On The Water’, for example, what are your feelings? Do you have the same sort of feelings as me about Matty Groves, or am I being too precious about this whole question? Should I see it instead as an ‘hommage’ to Fairport or whoever (even if the band say nothing about it being that)? I'd like to hear what other people think. So over to you... I am currently playing in a professional cover band...and we always try to make the arrangements as different from the record as we can. OTOH, "tribute" bands, who play the songs note for note like the record, are becoming quite popular here. Drives me batty; why not just stay home and listen to the record? Oddly, the first version I heard of Matty Groves was by Joan Baez; I forget what tune she used. Fairport's version (hands down, my favorite, of course) used the tune from "Shady Grove," more or less. Steeleye's "Blackleg Miner" seems pretty close to that (I love that one a lot, too)...I have no idea what my point is. :) Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Edthefolkie on May 28, 2009, 03:27:41 AM Don't want this to sound like The M*dc*t C*fe, but that's how the tradition works doesn't it?
I mean, this bunch of middle class English people get the words of a song which started off somewhere in the Borders maybe around 1500 and somehow migrated to the Appalachians. They then either adapt the American tune or use a completely different one (can't remember which, sorry Swarb!) It's duly recorded, becomes very well known over here, and inevitably other people pick the song up and equally inevitably it sounds a bit like the Fairports. It's happened more recently - I was gobsmacked a few years ago when I walked into a pub in Morpeth and found a very good band doing a Fairport-like version of John Gaudie to an audience ranging from teens to whole families and nanas and grandas. Off the record, I believe it was learned off the record! My take on it (for what it's worth) is that it's more of a tribute to the people who put the arrangement together than a rip-off. Oh, and Will, you aren't being precious, you simply have an inquiring mind :) Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: martin driver on May 28, 2009, 08:45:14 AM My favourite alternative version is Little Musgrave sung by Christy Moore & Planxty http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0-gcccksAg&feature=related
Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Paolo on May 28, 2009, 02:31:55 PM Hi, We need a box set dedicated to Matty+Shady Grove+Little Musgrave
I agree with Martin: Planxty's Musgrave is wonderful Another good Musgrave is by Pete Morton in Trespass album A nice different Matty is by scottish master folk singer Billy Ross in Shore Street album A famous Shady Grove is by Jerry Garcia with David Grisman in Shady Grove album best Paolo Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Bob Barrows on May 28, 2009, 04:21:19 PM And who can forget the title track from Quicksilver Messenger Service's Shady Grove album?
I used to walk on the city streets Now I wander far and wide And I never found my happiness Till I moved to the country-side Now follow me for a quiet day Out riding on the trails Away from smog 'n traffic probs Where all the pigs have tails I'm in shady grove Shady Grove my Honey Shady grove my true love I'm bound for Shady Grove Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Anna on May 28, 2009, 05:16:56 PM I collect as many versions of each song as I can! Whether they're "covers" or "original versions".
I've got at least three different bands doing Matty Groves (off the top of my head, Fairport, Isambarde and someone else - it might be telling that I've got Isambarde's version on the MP3 player at the minute, it might not). A good few versions of Beeswing (none as good as RT's original, a couple totally awful!). Any number of instrumental tunes come around again and again too, and I love hearing a new interpretation of them. An interesting song I've come across a couple of times is "Rant and Roar" - the UK (Isambarde) version has "trueborn young whalermen" in the chorus and the Newfie (Great Big Sea) version has "true newfoundlanders" instead. Would love to collect more versions! Would be interesting to find out more about the lineage of this one. So I'm in favour of lots of people doing the same songs, it's one of the reasons I'm a folkie! Even a "cover" version tends to have different and interesting interpretations going on. Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Tim Fletcher on May 28, 2009, 06:53:23 PM Hi, We need a box set dedicated to Matty+Shady Grove+Little Musgrave I agree with Martin: Planxty's Musgrave is wonderful Another good Musgrave is by Pete Morton in Trespass album A nice different Matty is by scottish master folk singer Billy Ross in Shore Street album A famous Shady Grove is by Jerry Garcia with David Grisman in Shady Grove album best Paolo I would also put in commendation for Martin Simpson's Musgrave as well. There is a band called Shambolica who do a rather nice Matty in the Fairport style - and Kerry, their singer, has a lovely voice so you get a sort of Matty with Sandy effect. Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: MarkC on May 28, 2009, 07:51:10 PM A famous Shady Grove is by Jerry Garcia with David Grisman in Shady Grove album best Paolo I love that one. The entire CD is fantastic! Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Bob Barrows on May 28, 2009, 09:23:57 PM An interesting song I've come across a couple of times is "Rant and Roar" - the UK (Isambarde) version has "trueborn young whalermen" in the chorus and the Newfie (Great Big Sea) version has "true newfoundlanders" instead. Would love to collect more versions! Would be interesting to find out more about the lineage of this one. We'll rant and we'll roar Like true British Sailors Rant and we'll roar All on the salt sea Until we strike soundings in the channel of olde England From Ushant to Scillies is 35 leagues Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: MikeB (Mike) on May 29, 2009, 04:12:59 AM An interesting song I've come across a couple of times is "Rant and Roar" - the UK (Isambarde) version has "trueborn young whalermen" in the chorus and the Newfie (Great Big Sea) version has "true newfoundlanders" instead. Would love to collect more versions! Would be interesting to find out more about the lineage of this one. We'll rant and we'll roar Like true British Sailors Rant and we'll roar All on the salt sea Until we strike soundings in the channel of olde England From Ushant to Scillies is 35 leagues It's not actually the chorus is it? I thought it was two seperate songs woven together by SoH/Phil like they do with Tall Ships/Spanish Ladies. Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: jaypeter (Peter) on May 29, 2009, 08:02:00 AM An interesting song I've come across a couple of times is "Rant and Roar" - the UK (Isambarde) version has "trueborn young whalermen" in the chorus and the Newfie (Great Big Sea) version has "true newfoundlanders" instead. Would love to collect more versions! Would be interesting to find out more about the lineage of this one. We'll rant and we'll roar Like true British Sailors Rant and we'll roar All on the salt sea Until we strike soundings in the channel of olde England From Ushant to Scillies is 35 leagues Aka "Spanish Ladies". Re other Matties, Plant and Krauss stuck a snatch of the song in the middle of a slightly odd medley on their recent tour. Unexplained and a bit superfluous, neither nowt nor summat. Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Anna on May 29, 2009, 09:35:01 AM An interesting song I've come across a couple of times is "Rant and Roar" - the UK (Isambarde) version has "trueborn young whalermen" in the chorus and the Newfie (Great Big Sea) version has "true newfoundlanders" instead. Would love to collect more versions! Would be interesting to find out more about the lineage of this one. We'll rant and we'll roar Like true British Sailors Rant and we'll roar All on the salt sea Until we strike soundings in the channel of olde England From Ushant to Scillies is 35 leagues That's a third version then! Great Big Sea call theirs "Rant and Roar"; Isambarde call it "The Talcahuano Girls". I've never been able to really make out the lyrics to the second part of the chorus in either version. Might have to be brave and ask Chris if I get a chance at the Maudsley on Saturday evening... Whos is your version, Bob? Where (as in which side of the Atlantic) is it from? JP, same questions, sounds like another one (apologies for the thread hijack, would it be worth a moderator's time & effort to snip this bit out? Or is this still relevant here?) Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: jaypeter (Peter) on May 29, 2009, 09:56:57 AM It crops up time and again in Arthur Ransome's "Swallows and Amazons " books, (along with Hanging Johnny) John Tams has done a version too. There's a bit in "Peter Duck" where the old sailor explains to the nippers how the chap who wrote it must have been beating up the channel against a nor-easter, by the landmarks the writer was looking for, which must have been at the northern extremity of each tack.
The first land we sighted was called the Dodman, Next Rame Head off Plymouth, Start, Portland and Wight; We sailed by Beachy, by Fairlight and Dungeness, And then we bore up for the South Foreland light. Well you did ask Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Nick on May 29, 2009, 10:55:47 AM I'm in favour of lots of people doing the same songs, it's one of the reasons I'm a folkie! Even a "cover" version tends to have different and interesting interpretations going on. Sorry to send this thread further off course, but Anna, you might be interested in the Song Links projects that have come together from time to time. The projects consider songs that have evolved separately on different continents, and show how the same song, tune or idea has followed different interpretations in different places. The first Song Links (http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/webrevs/fecd176d.htm) album looked at songs that were taken to Australia and shows how they evolved along different paths from the versions that were sung back in the UK. The second Song Links 2 (http://www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/~zierke/wyndham-read/records/songlinks2.html) took the same approach for songs across the Atlantic. Both albums contain 2 discs, one having the english versions the other having the australian/american versions. The albums were originally put together to accompany concerts of the songs. I saw the show for Song Links 2 at Sidmouth a few years ago and it was very interesting. If you want to hear how songs evolve along different paths I'd recommend taking a listen to these. Cheers Nick Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Ollie on May 29, 2009, 11:16:02 AM Just by chance I've just found this version of Matty - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXUPZf979Ig
Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Bob Barrows on May 29, 2009, 11:39:40 AM An interesting song I've come across a couple of times is "Rant and Roar" - the UK (Isambarde) version has "trueborn young whalermen" in the chorus and the Newfie (Great Big Sea) version has "true newfoundlanders" instead. Would love to collect more versions! Would be interesting to find out more about the lineage of this one. We'll rant and we'll roar Like true British Sailors Rant and we'll roar All on the salt sea Until we strike soundings in the channel of olde England From Ushant to Scillies is 35 leagues That's a third version then! Great Big Sea call theirs "Rant and Roar"; Isambarde call it "The Talcahuano Girls". I've never been able to really make out the lyrics to the second part of the chorus in either version. Might have to be brave and ask Chris if I get a chance at the Maudsley on Saturday evening... Whos is your version, Bob? Where (as in which side of the Atlantic) is it from? JP, same questions, sounds like another one (apologies for the thread hijack, would it be worth a moderator's time & effort to snip this bit out? Or is this still relevant here?) Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: martin driver on May 29, 2009, 11:59:05 AM Just by chance I've just found this version of Matty - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXUPZf979Ig Jiggawat, scheduled to play the Warwick festival this year, http://www.myspace.com/jiggawatt4 Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: jaypeter (Peter) on May 29, 2009, 12:37:03 PM My favourite example of a song changing in my own personal experience was one we used to sing in Time and Tune, then Singing Together, both Schools Radio programmes which must have introduced a generation to traditional music. It was variously called "Gilgarry Mountains" aka "Cork and Kerry", aka "Captain Farrell" a fairly rumty-tumty ballad of crime and punishment. Who would have thought that ten years later it would resurface on TOTP as, of course "Whisky in The Jar". (Sung by the then Coolest Man in Town, Phil Lynott).
Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Paolo on May 29, 2009, 03:53:30 PM I guess We have compiled the ultimate Matty Box Set
p 8) Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Dr Monk on May 29, 2009, 04:24:00 PM Robert Plant and Alison Krauss have also been doing Matty on tour. Sounds like it is based on the Liege and Lief version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq6YqJBHHIc (not great quality sound) Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: jaypeter (Peter) on May 29, 2009, 06:45:11 PM Robert Plant and Alison Krauss have also been doing Matty on tour. Sounds like it is based on the Liege and Lief version. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq6YqJBHHIc (not great quality sound) Nope. Leaves me cold. What's the point? Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: PLW (Peter) on May 29, 2009, 06:48:21 PM Robert Plant and Alison Krauss have also been doing Matty on tour. Sounds like it is based on the Liege and Lief version. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq6YqJBHHIc (not great quality sound) Nope. Leaves me cold. What's the point? Every point. You want a song to survive, sing it. Evene if you copy someone else's version, it'll be different enough to carry it forward. Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: jaypeter (Peter) on May 29, 2009, 06:54:12 PM Robert Plant and Alison Krauss have also been doing Matty on tour. Sounds like it is based on the Liege and Lief version. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq6YqJBHHIc (not great quality sound) Nope. Leaves me cold. What's the point? Every point. You want a song to survive, sing it. Evene if you copy someone else's version, it'll be different enough to carry it forward. Sorry, didn't make meself clear, I didn't like it, pointless to argue further, just a matter of taste. I didn't think it was a "version" of the song, and I kept wanting them to sing the song, not snatches of the song in the middle of another song/framing device. Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Kathryn on May 29, 2009, 08:36:43 PM one of the earlier Buffy Ste. Marie albums has "Lady Margaret"...sung to the 'Shady Groves/Matty Groves tune the words combine aspects of both 'Barbara Allen' and 'Matty'.....forbidden love and death, a classic combination!
Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: Brendan on May 29, 2009, 09:32:32 PM Probably been mentioned, but don't the Kipper Family do a version called Fatty Groves
Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: John From Austin on May 29, 2009, 10:29:32 PM Jason Wilson did a reggae version of Matty on his latest album.
Swarby played with Wilson earlier this month in Canada, and did quite the avant garde fiddle solo on Matty. If I'm not mistaken, Swarb also plays on the album. Title: Re: Other Matties Post by: rogthedodge on May 31, 2009, 01:58:31 AM My favourite alternative version is Little Musgrave sung by Christy Moore & Planxty http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0-gcccksAg&feature=related For me Nic Jones' version is far better than Christy's (which is just annoying). Nic's is my favourite 'Little Musgrave'. I really don't have another favourite 'Matty' - all the others seem poor by comparison to the FP/Sandy renditions |