TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

Have a look at Gareth's article on the Fairport website, here:

http://www.fairportconvention.com/cropredy_news.php#news2

Among the responses you'll find some by a person called "Ruth", who clearly hated the whole experience, especially Fairport. Fair enough, but she repeatedly refers to the appearance of "that strange throat singer" on Saturday night. You'll need to read down the postings a bit.

According to her it prompted a mass exodus of the field. What is she talking about? Any ideas?

I have just been reading the mentioned comment(s) and I am as puzzled as you. She can only be talking about Simon Nicol, I suppose.In my response I suggested that maybe she was rejected by either Simon or another Fairport member in the past and this is her revenge. .Sounds like a woman I don´t want to meet ever in my life. [;-) [;-) [;-) ;D ;D

 ??? Beats me!   Rarely has my gob been so smacked.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion all right, but some people just have very strange opinions!  I have no idea who the "throat singer" was and there certainly weren't any people anywhere near me leaving at the start of, or during Fairport's set.  They are the main reason we go and OF COURSE they should always close the show on Saturday.   As someone else posted in the comments on Gareth's article, the clue is in the name "FAIRPORT'S Cropredy Convention".   Still baffled!   ::)

Having just looked over Saturday's lineup and read Ruth's comment I am also puzzled.

Unless she meant Ralph or Nik (unlikely), the most obvious suspect would be the front man from Dreadzone when he was doing his deep-voiced-growl "RIGHT" but a) that was in the afternoon, not the evening and b) I don't think there was a mass exodus when Dreadzone were on.

I thought she was talking about Chris Leslie, myself. I guess it can sound like he's not using his diaphragm at all ...

I reckon it was Sid Kipper - couldn't understand a word of Black Bonnie Hare.

I think she's a sad, lonely person who just likes winding people up to get noticed.

Perhaps there was a wormhole in the space-time continuum and Ruth was hearing Dave Cousins from a couple of years ago (only joking, folks!)

To be fair, some of what she says in her various postings is not unreasonable and she clearly enjoyed the festival in general. I think she has just hamstrung herself through having no previous awareness of Fairport or their significance to the event, finding them not to her taste and with her mystifying reference to the "strange throat singer".

I suspected she meant Ralph McTell but if, as she contends, it was part of the Fairport line up and prompted some sort of exodus, at least on her part, it must have been Chris as he took the lead vocals on the early part of the set. It is a peculiar and wildly inaccurate description though.

I wonder if Keith might be right and Mr Kipper's rendition of The Bonny Black Hare might have been the culprit. I can certainly understand how that might have driven people away and Ruth may not know that he is not actually part of the band.

Well I did read this report and even though I was not at Cropredy this year I am still baffled as to who the "throat singer" could be certainly not one of Fairport ??? ???

As for Fairport not playing the final gig of the festival as this Ruth suggests .... it is like giving someone a Birthday Cake and then saying .... "but you can't eat any of it"  ;D

I think that's exactly right GubGub, Ruth does say right at the start that she enjoyed the festival and the experience but didn't like Fairport's set.  To be fair to her, outside people who post on this and other boards, I have known over the years a lot of people who go to Cropredy for the event or for band X or Y and really aren't bothered about Fairport at all.  They may not be a majority but I think they're a significant minority.

Fairport aren't the biggest act at Cropredy, but they will always headline (unlike Oysterband at Big Session), and perhaps someone who'd seen who'd seen Steve Winwood, Richard Thompson, Seth Lakeman etc was expecting someone "bigger" for want of a better word.

I'm sorry, but my first thoughts about this are 'What is she on?!'

I read her comments.. and responded to them...  I wondered if her throat singer reference was meant to be Sid Kipper.

She quite clearly knows nothing about my fave band!

Ahahaha! Glad it's not just me...

There have been a lot more comments...  Ruth hasn't made herself very popular!

Did make a comment on a previous link that certain people in certain bands are beyond criticism, clearly I must have been wrong.

Quite agree... I like a bit of debate as much as the next TAWer but some of the Cropredy threads have been a bit, well, sour this year...

Thirded.

This is not the first thread that I've noticed where "it's nice to be nice" appears to apply only to members of this board and Fairport while anyone in the wider world, particularly those like Ruth (whose not unreasonable points have clearly touched a nerve for some people here) are fair game for any and all comments.  The smell of double standards is not a pleasant one.

I was simply referring to the possibility that she was a troll - that's the staple of "sad, lonely people who like winding others up". Whether through brute clumsiness or malice, she managed, in a short comment, to denegrate both the organisers and everyone who likes Fairport. No mean feat.

Saying Faiport were dull doesn't denigrates everyone who likes them, and if you thought she was a troll why not say so instead of attacking her personally?

I repeat, double standards, but just to be clear (and obviously I don't think this), imagine the opprobrium that would descend on my head were I to say, apropos Amethyst's comment that Faiport were her fave band that there are hundreds of better bands so she must be bonkers and a sad lonely old woman who needs to get out more.

Here's her first comment - you decide:

8 showers for two fields of campers or more is dire to say the least. Far too many dogs at the festival as well. Was my first time, loved the crowd and the atmosphere, food and the shopping...the music was mostly enjoyable and I know its their gig and the long term festival goers won't like me saying it but....the field started to clear as soon as that strange throat singer started on Saturday night and as Fairport started their set. Play at some point by all means but they killed the atmosphere at the end so maybe its time they let one of the younger bands/artists take that spot to finish with a high. One man I talked to on the way back to the tent said he'd been coming for years but would not come again and the number of people who left as their set went on said it all.

And then her second comment contained this gem:

I loved 90% of the music but not Fairport or for want of a better word the 'throat singer'. Fairport were dull dull dull and the night ended as flat as their music.

That's about as close to trolling on the Fairport web site as I've ever seen.

This is really odd. This whole thread is descending into unpleasantness over someone's thoughts who doesn't even post here.
The question was who was she referring to when she called someone a Throat Singer? and no one can work out who she meant. That's fine! And as we keep saying people can have differing opinions, but there also needs to be the opportunity to say why one doesn't agree with another.

And naturally on this board you will find people wanting to defend Fairport because that is really what has brought this forum together. Fairport's Cropredy Convention  is really not like any other festival because it based around the one band - Fairport, and one village -Cropredy, so to suggest that Fairport shouldn't take the main headlining Saturday spot is a little bizarre to say the least. Perhaps it should be based around another village as well then it would become something completely else.

Well I've actually lost track of what I was trying to say now, not unlike this whole thread. ::)

Shall we have a cup of tea? :D

Not often I get out of Pugwash and become Mr Amethyst, I understand the point you are making but think perhaps you're enjoying winding the board up. To say imagine the (what ever that word is) that would descend on my head... and then say it, well ....

I have no intention of winding anyone up, I'm simply pointing out that some people on here seem to feel it acceptable to make personal attacks on somebody they don't know and who doesn't even post on here, simply because they disagree with her.  Again, because some people ddidn't seem to understand what I meant I demonstrated the point, while clearly saying that don't I think anything of the sort.  If Amethyst is offended by me using her post as an example, and I hope she isn't, then I apologise to her.

Ruth said Fairport were dull and killed the atmosphere.  Obviously people here will disagree with that and that's fine (though one might hope for something better than "oh no they weren't") but disagreeing doesn't invalidate her opinion or entitle people to make personal attacks on her.  She also said that lots of people left, which someone earlier on this thread has backed up.

If I drank tea, I'd take you up on that Jude  :)

Actually most of this topic has been about trying to understand Ruth's comments and there haven't really been personal attacks. (There is always the 'Report to Moderator' button)

The original post on the Fairport site was obviously highly provocative and Ruth (who could be anybody) clearly understood that. I would have said that the responce both there and here has been restrained.

Jeremy I would say that you were also being deliberately provocative. Your second name isn't Ruth is it?

Well you would be wrong Colin but I've said what I have to say on this so I shall leave the thread alone now.

Thanks Yabb.

In no way did I make a personal attack on Ruth... I never do (in public at least  ;))

Thanks Jeremy for dragging me into this.. just what I need!

Yes I am sad (but only cos my mother is dying), yes I am old(ish) at 55 (actually in my prime).
But in no way am I lonely nor do I need to get out more.

I repeat.. I did not make a personal attack re Ruth, just an observation.

Now Jude I'd love that cuppa please  :-*

PS I'm not bonkers either..... though I must be to have resoponded to this...

Oh and Fairport is my fave band and I'm proud of that!

To us FC will always be the highlight of Cropredy. We do take our hat off to Gareth for letting the post's run on the FC site. It show's an openness to different opinions, whether they be good, bad or indifferent. Those that are younger and only see it as a festival will never have the same loyalty as us old'un's. When they post their opinions, they are not thinking it may offend. They just see it as a forum where they can voice their view, after all they have grown up with forums, txts, myspace, msn, where they just post what they feel at that moment in time, with no worry of offence, because most of their "friends" do not take offence anyway. We are maybe being presumptuous that Ruth is probably of this generation, however well done Gareth for allowing differing viewpoints.

C & M

I am bonkers but not lonely and sad. I think the more people that respond to comments like the ones that Ruth made, the more you add fuel to the fire. If she didn't like it then hey, thats her opinion and if as a fan you can't take your favourite band being criticised then thats your problem. The more comments that are made means there is more chance that someone may get upset. I remember a few years ago, people on here criticising Ric. As a friend of his I found this upsetting but instead of retalliating I chose to ignore and not read.
Please lets not take other people's opinions as personal insults. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

As far as the throat singer goes. I thought it was Simon she was talking about. Do I agree, definately not!!!
Smiles
Sally x

She must be talking about Sid Kipper. No comment.

Well said !!!  
And by the way, the two best catering stands for me were the Welsh Oggis and the one nearby that had lovely cakes+tea. Come to think of it, what we really need is a catering stand offering cream teas & cakes - that would be perfection!

Hmmmm....

I do think there has been some trolling going on though....  Fairport's Cropredy Convention without Fairport.... well the clue's in the name, isn't it?

Sorry, folks. I didn't mean to start a fight!!!

"Ruth" is entitled to her views and to express them wherever and however she wants. The rest of us can choose to ignore them. After all, people here are happy to criticise plenty of the performers at Cropredy. (There have been much worse comments than "dull dull dull")

As Jude says, above, I was merely wondering who on earth she meant by "that strange throat singer"! Hence the title of the thread (which is not "Ruth")

Blimey.  That's only a year older than me. Am I old?

55 is the new 45... so that makes you both young(ish) not old(ish)!

And there's a real throat singer on Shooglenifty's CD "Troots" if anyone is interested...

"Wrong" about what? The idea that certain people in certain bands (meaning FC, I imagine) are "beyond criticism"? if so, I heartily agree that you were wrong ... well done for coming to the correct conclusion. I'm sure it must have been because you saw all the comments about Fairport's "flat" performance in the Cropredy Chatter and Reviews topics, right? or was it from going back in the archives and reading some of the harsh things that were said about Sense Of Occasion when that cd came out? Or was it the criticism that is often levelled against Ric's playing style that convinced you?

You might want to help point Jeremy in the same direction ...

Sorry I meant that tongue in cheek  ;)

Anyway who said being a throat singer was a bad thing?

Of course!  ;)

Right. I'm off to form a band called That Starnge Throat Singer. We're already famous and have quite a following.

haven't read the article, not gonna, but i have to ask what is trolling?

and point out that maybe there were some tibetan throat chanters there that were only audibe to some people......... ::) ;)

Trolling is deliberately contentious posting, intended to stir things up for the Troll's entertainment and hopefully start a flame war.
It's very difficult to stop, because the Troll's next responce will be to complain that criticism isn't being allowed.

On TAW we normally ask the author for to expand on the reasons for their criticism. If they respond with a fair argument then no problem.

thanks yobb x

Rod Stewart made a couple of bob out of it!


Interesting that further through the comments that follow 'Ruth's' contribution is the suggestion that :  No Fairport = no Festival.  What do we think about that?   I can see the obvious: it is Fairport's Cropredy Convention.  But one of the things we all love is the Fairport ethos: 'Fairport' is bigger than any individual, 'Fairport' stands for good music whatever the genre,  Fairport supports talent young and old.

Just as Fairport can go on with personnel changes would the band want everything else that the Cropredy Festival stands for to finish if they do.  Has not the 'Fairport machine' bred enough civilised, respectable, honest people to want to continue this festival with out them?

(Although I can see that the other half of the equation (Fairport's Cropredy Convention) might not want to trust anyone else with their village!)

I think most people attend Cropredy for the magic moment of joining in together with FC for MOTL at the close of the festival.

It would not be Cropredy without Fairport IMO. If Fairport were not there, Cropredy would not likely figure into my travel plans for when I finally can afford to make the trip to blighty (maybe next summer if things continue to work out ...  :)). I'm thinking I'm not alone in that.

  ...And the VILLAGE(S) might not want to trust anyone else; the long history and slow evolution of this festival has probably ensured good relations between the band, the village and other people involved in the organisation of the event - so I think any transition in the form or 'ownership' of the fesival would have to be gradual, and sensitivly handled.

I done some singin' with my froat today. And my mouth. And I reckon a bit come out my nose an' all. But it started down my froat.

I've read somewhere that the village will not permit a festival which is not run by Fairport - and can see their point. I'd be very apprehensive if a "generic" 20,000 licence music festival were to be held so close to my home.

That's a limiting viewpoint. Fairport cannot go on forever - perhaps another 10 years and that'll be that.  Would you want to close one (or both) pub(s) and the village stores and lose considerable income to the village on a point of principle so ill-founded?

I'd imagine that enough people would be concerned to cause some lively local debate, with some feeling that the loss of pubs and stores worth the peace of mind.

Careful continuance and evolution will be necessary to keep relations with the village sweet. For example, feral drunken yoof are bad enough on the camping fields, their running riot in the village would be a PR disaster. I'm glad steps are being taken to discourage them.

This may not be the right thread but.......
I am not writing this to be contentious , i am not a troll and it's quite sad that i have to start a post with comments that sound defensive.
I have listened to Fairports for over 40 yrs. I have attended 20 plus Cropredys. I attend Cropredy with friends who have been going longer than me.
We decided not to go on the main field this yr although had a fabby day in the village on Sat and Leatherat were great. As i have said in other threads my reasons for not going were principally the line up but we were disappointed at the fairport set in 2008, not the guests, not the Sandy bit but funnilly enough the Babacombe Lee bits which have always been a favourite album and line up.
My wife loves Chris Leslie, his voice and song writing have brought something to the band but for me he has contributed to them losing their drive, the rock bit of folk rock, As somebody has said before 'take the best folk fiddler in the country and put him on mandolin.!'(it may just be age on both their and my part!)
I  hope i am allowed an opinion and it's one i would like to discuss. I don't think I'm stuck in a Sandy /RT time warp ,i have loved various incarnations of the band. I am the guy who still listens to 'Wounded Whale!'
I probably am an old f**t but Cropredy changed for me when it became three days, it changed again without Chris Peggs influence. I understand the reasons for change.
I just hope that this board remains  a place where i can say, 'I didn't like Fairports set or album etc' without becoming the anti christ.
Ruth is entitled to say she found the set dull. Talking about why she felt that and the feelings i have expressed above is surely what a music forum is for.?
Of to the realities of work and the real world.

That's all fine...but why the defensiveness?  You're allowed to say you don't enjoy something.  You've said it nicely.  No problem, is there?

no problem at all hendo. xxx
i love some FC stuff, can't abide others, but i am the same with tull and i consider them to be one of my highest rated bands ever.  everyone has their down times.  and eeryone is entitled to their opinion.


i could spout about how much my better half can't be doing with FC and he only comes to crop to meet up with good people and humour me, but i won't.

much more likely to see you sat now hendo, if ya know what i mean.   are dogs allowed?

abby xx (tank girl)

But it would have been better if she had stuck a in bit of analysis. More about why she thought FC were dull dull dull. She just sounded like a stroppy child. Also I just don't believe that the field cleared when FC came on. She just saw what she chose to see.

Hi Hendo, yes you were polite, that's the difference between you and Ruth. Tone is everything on the Internet, given that body language (about 70% of our face to face communication) is absent. Ruth's tone was combative, hence the response.

K.

N.B. If the field did clear after Fairport came on, I dread to think what the exit would have been like with a full field  ;)

Spot on.

After I left the 'front' after Yusuf was on, I was amazed at how sparsely populated the field was during the Fairport set.  A large percentage of those remaining in the top 2/3 of the field seemed - to me - entirely disengaged from the music taking place.

Interesting. Have you got any other years or days to compare it with? Do you normally wander about during FC?

If he normally doesn't, it would be illuminating in itself if this were the first year he did.

I think it has often been like that. From the back of the sound tower down, whether sitting or standing, most people are paying attention to the stage but I have noticed on many occasions when I have had to make my way up to the toilets during Fairport's set that there are many people for whom the music is perhaps more incidental to their other activities.

Incidentally, I do wonder whether the screen is part of the reason for less people standing up during Fairport's set. In the olden days you had to stand up to see the stage and once you were up you may as well jig about a bit. Now it seems that a lot of people, perhaps as a result of getting older, are not too worried about seeing the stage provide that they can see the screen and hear the music. I always used to go and stand somewhere near the front for Fairport's set but somehow I have made a subconscious decision not to to that for the last three years, possibly because th screen has fooled me into thinking I can see what is going on. I still like to stand up though.

Amethyst! Sweetie, please do reread what Jeremy said. What he was saying was that he wasn't calling you a sad old bag. That if he had done, it would have been out of order. Don't take on.

Yes, I think we could all do with that cup of tea. I suppose that, while no opinion should be proscribed, there are entities which are so dear to people's hearts that feelings are liable to run high when those entities are criticised.

Mine's an Earl Grey, fairly strong, no sugar, dash of milk, please.  

Smiths

Hmmm - I sure hope so, Bob - but in the past few years, those that know nothing (or very little) of the history are getting larger by the year. Whether that has reached the magic 50% yet I don't know.....in my view, that's a shame - but as I said earlier - as long as the tickets sell, does it matter who to?

The few pages of history, page 72 in this year's prog should have helped the uninitiated. Similar articles in future years re the History of FC, perhaps?

Regular instruction to Cropredy Virgins over the preceding few months by their friends, I have found helps. Occasionally such CVs buy me a beer just to shut me up, I find  ;D

I think that since the organisational responsibilities for the festival changed a few years ago there has been a stronger commercial imperative to ensure that the festival at the very least breaks even. That means scheduling bigger name bands who will ensure an audience that perhaps Fairport could not attract in their own right. Those people will stay for the whole festival but a proportion of them at least will be less interested in Fairport than they are in some of the other acts and for those of us who have been attending for many years that is a strange but necessary change in the demographic.

Good point about the screen. If all 18000-20000 people were in the field at once, how full would it be? I don't have any concept of what 20000 people look like. It's easy at Crops to see the whole field so I suppose you can spot empty spaces. FC seemed pretty full to me, but I was about 10 rows back, dead centre, so it would. The queues for the front-of-field loos were pretty long, and, as has been said, the bottleneck for the bridge was pretty bottlenecky.

I concur up till here....



Why not schedule bigger name bands that *would* attract the sort of audience that would far more likely be sympathetic to Fairport's music?
There's a big nu-folk (or alt-folk, call it what you will) movement out there whose larger acts regularly attract 1000 at any gig.....Laura Marling, Newton Faulkner for two. They'd pull in just as many as a Nik Kershaw probably did.....

Only another 17 Cropredys or so back to '85.  Wander about?  Only if I'm in need of a pee/cider or I'm bored.  I was bored (and trying to escape some annoying 'youths') during Yusuf so wandered off...  I left the field at the end of the Babbacombe Lee section and sang MotL from the comfort of my tent.  

Agreed, but then it would be a folk festival  :D

Ignoring the merits of his music (I'm not a fan - and I thought the set was sacharine to say the least), I refuse to believe that having Nik Kershaw on the bill added a single person to the audience...just as I refuse to believe that having the Buzzcocks or Feast of Fiddles playing added a single person (and the former might have actually reduced it, sad as I might think that to be).  The headliners make (ie a Steve Winwood fan might come and investigate what is what) a difference of course...

..and half the audience would be instantly disenfranchised.  Sad possibly (but true).

Yes, I was thinking of the headliners, particularly last year. I like Nik Kershaw but I don't think he was added to the bill this year to pull in extra crowds. He was there because Ric Sanders is a fan.

BUT - instead, they would draw in the youth (20-somethings) that all foillow these acts - and lower the age demographic that FC are oft quoted as wanting to do.....surely that's better than any 40+ something that Nik Kershaw brought in.....(I'm with you in thinking he brought very few or none in, but am of the view that his fee would have been such that he was added to the bill to draw extra ticket sales)

I can see the argument Chris but I'm not convinced.  Not disagreeing, just not convinced.

I agree that headliners are important but a solid undercard is equally so and can often make up for the lack of a big name.  A festival ticket is a lot of money to see two names for instance but not so much to see seven or eight smaller ones.  I suspect that, while every one on the bill has their adherents, to the casual purchaser a lot of the acts prompt a "who?" rather than a "yes!"

At a slight tangent, what I would like is the ability to buy day tickets for Thursday or Friday.  Other commitments, and to be fair, lack of interest, meant I didn't go this year for the full thing but I'd have liked the opportunity to go just for Friday.

I don't think they book acts to bring in a specific demograph. There are so many festivals on these days that it's probably a case of who is available, how much will they cost against the budget and do they (as in the organisers) like them. Nik Kershaw might not have brought in any extras (he tours a lot so anyone desperate to see him would have had ample opportunity over the last 20 years) but he had a large crowd in the mosh and lots of people singing along to him all over the field, clearly enjoying themselves, so job's a goodun.

As good as the acts are (and they are all quality, even if it's not your bag) they're never going to suit everyone. It's a bit odd to go to Cropredy if you don't like FC, (although saying that I'm not a Levellers fan but I'd go to Beautiful Days) but there's no law about it, same as there's no law stating everyone must sit, or stand and dance or whatever. Yes you expect people to be considerate to others but if you see someone standing in front of you dancing and singing and having a good time, are you being considerate to their feelings by asking them to sit?  :-\

Not sure where I'm going with this now so I'm off to lunch. TTFN.

well as this thread is still going strong I guess its one up to the trolls!

Oddly I don't think Ruth was a Troll. (and I hate Trolls)
She certainly acted like one and her original post had all the hallmarks, but she did just post it in one place.
Maybe that's just how she saw it and it wasn't what she expected or wanted.

Fair enough I suppose.

Ruth never posted in this thread as far as I can tell, it started as a comment on her post on the Fairport site and then deteriorated for awhile before being revived as a discussion on Cropredy as an experience.

What confuses me is how attached people are to their opinions and how hurt they can get about other peoples. Does it really matter if she didn't like the show, everyone's experience is different.

It's an odd reaction, isn't it?

David, the point i was trying to make with the defensiveness was that some people  have felt they can't express an opinion, which may go against thw majority, without being jumped on so they are almost apologising for their opinion.

I agree. i was just trying to stimulate a discussion re music