TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

So, it's been fun digesting The Golden Road.

Where do I go next?

I have a CDR copy of So Many Roads while I wait to find a regular copy at a reasonable price.

I was thinking that Bob Weir's Ace would be a good one to get next, as I understand that it's early 70s Dead in all but name.

But then what?  There's so many live releases!  My preferences are for songs over jams.

Let me know what you recommend.

Jules

I suppose you really need the next box set to get a complete overview of their flawed but fascinating studio collection.

As for live, the thing about the Dead is its all 'out there'...legally...or virtually all of it is.

Think of a year and start listening (http://www.archive.org/details/GratefulDead Audience recordings downloadable, soundboards streamable)

I guess, given your 'songs not jams' comment your best bet is probably to start with 1972, oft mentioned as their best year.  Otherwise, just chose a year and see what you think.  Even the later years have got some peaks (but a hell of a lot of troughs too)....

Go on...test that 'improper download usage' on your internet connection to the limit  :)

Bon voyage.

ps And So Many Roads is an, imho, awesome overview of the band....

Thanks, David, I thought I'd be hearing from you.   ;)

1972, eh?  Noted.

From slightly earlier, I noticed that Three From The Vault was touted as having very good sound, and the tracklisting looks solid.  Heard that one?

Jules

Ace is excellent!

I guess it all depends on how deeply you want to dip your toe in the waters. As you know, I am new to some of this stuff myself and have looked at the bewildering array of archive releases and really don't know where to start or whether I have got the time or energy to be bothered.

But... This is where I came in and if you like the more structured stuff I think you will enjoy it. In the Dark is the band's late flowering classic. The Arista Years 2 disc set is a great sampler. Without A Net is a funky late era live album and I am quite fond of From The Mars Hotel which sits between all the stuff you have just listened to and the ones I have mentioned above.

Me? I'm saving up for Beyond Description, the sister set to The Golden Road covering the later period. On sale now at Amazon at a similarly tempting price. Oh dear!

Yes, of course...Feb 19 '71...it's a classic show...one of my faves...and some 3 minute tracks amongst the 20 minute noodles!

Disc One

   1. Two Ditties: "The Merry-Go-Round Broke Down" (Friend, Franklin), "Spring Song" (Mendelssohn) — 1:19
   2. "Truckin'" (Garcia, Lesh, Weir, Hunter) — 8:09
   3. "Loser" (Garcia, Hunter) — 6:23
   4. "Cumberland Blues" (Garcia, Lesh, Hunter) — 4:58
   5. "It Hurts Me Too" (James, Woodbridge) — 6:10
   6. "Bertha" (Garcia, Hunter) — 5:21
   7. "Playing in the Band" (Weir, Hart, Hunter) — 5:14
   8. "Dark Hollow" (Browning) — 3:15
   9. "Smokestack Lightning" (Burnett) — 14:42
  10. "China Cat Sunflower" (Garcia, Hunter) — 3:24
  11. "I Know You Rider" (traditional, arranged by Grateful Dead) — 7:02

Disc Two

   1. "Greatest Story Ever Told" (Weir, Hunter) — 4:22
   2. "Johnny B. Goode" (Berry) — 3:26
   3. "Bird Song" (Garcia, Hunter) — 7:04
   4. "Easy Wind" (Hunter) — 8:17
   5. "Deal" (Garcia, Hunter) — 4:22
   6. "Cryptical Envelopment" (Garcia) > "Drums" (Kreutzmann) > "The Other One" (Weir) — 16:09
   7. "Wharf Rat" (Garcia, Hunter) — 9:08
   8. "Good Lovin'" (Resnick, Clark) — 18:43
   9. "Casey Jones" (Garcia, Hunter) — 5:00

Well, while I will never deny the staggering wealth of great songs the Dead unearthed, if you are investigating the Dead from that perspective u will see only the faintest glimmer of their unfurled majesty. However if I were to point, say a CSN fan such as yourself into the gentlest yet most representative Grateful Dead avenue it would be the 1980 Radio City Live Reckoning, Jerry and Bob acoustic, Mickey and Bill stripped nearly nekkid, denied the use of their handsome beast apparatus. I suppose I would point to either a JGB band live cd or Ratdog live before Ace. Doubtlessly in the years Ace was out of print it was the most desired of the solo releases, and is nearly front to back, as was Garcia first, stuff that became the cornerstone of the Dead's repertoire, in fact the back up band on most of Ace is the Dead. But the thing that made the Dead fly higher even than the Beatles or Jimi just isn't the songs per se, they were sort of a roadmap with directions in the lyrical content.  For instance the Dead happens in that moment at the end of the Playing in the Band lyric, usually where Phil hits a subsonic note and the floor is removed from beneath your feet, and presto, Golden Gate Park 67, Dizzy Gillespie playing along with them, (unknown to them) from the audience at the Human Be In, smell of the eucalyptus trees, insense, probably pathitouli  oil on the way into forever, always was, always will be for real. I suppose I would need to stick your ass in the Greek Theatre on a sunny Saturday or Alpine Valley or many places in order to " get IT", fairly rare is the person who can find that on their own, and of course that opportunity ceased to exist long ago. I suppose I bought that original catalogue years ago out of obligation as much as wanting it, and these days the very best of their efforts, save for the milestone live performances that have been pulled from the net, is available for free at any number of outlets, I suppose for immediate use the Internet archive would be a good place to look, not to mention David Gans storehouse of Grateful Dead hours, a show now 25 years old.
Noodling, I can think of no more insulting word to the Grateful Dead, I mean was Michael Jordan noodling when he was dribbling?

It's just a word...no need to get offended on the band's behalf.  And boy, do I hate basketball  ;D

Precisely. If Ken Hom was noodling I don't think anyone would complain!  ;D

Its just that no other word has been used as often in dismissing the Grateful Dead as noodling, with apologies to tie dye which I can absolve myself from having never worn one. Grateful Dead had some mighty close friends in that basketball world, notably Bill Walton and Phil Jackson and much of the Dead's aesthetic can be found in the way Phil Jackson's method of coaching of the whole working toward the common good. I would never dismiss a sport, for instance I find futbol boring, but I realize I just don't get it, and after a lifelong appetite for baseball, football, basketball and hockey there is little room left on the sports plate.

Thanks, it's good to have that one in the locker.

It is interesting that you should say that. I have just read a review on Amazon where the author was talking about using The Grateful Dead as an example of teamwork for his office colleagues for precisely that reason.

Yeah, Walton is even on the board of their Rex Foundation, the philanthropic arm, and has seen them something like 800 times, while still having time to be one of the most exquisite and cerebral basketball players ever, sorry to break it into black and white, but even if u only have a scant knowledge of basketball, u may have noticed that most of its greatest practitioners are of African descent, Walton was certainly one of the greats, without a doubt one of the greatest white players, and, along with Phil Jackson, one of the leagues first hippies. I had the small honor of having Bill come stand next to my English Caroline and I for the encore at one of the Frost Amphitheater shows in 4/85, at 6 feet 11 he was of course not hard to spot.

Believe me, I like noodling.. :)  If you really want to know about noodling in a negative sense, listen to some of the 90's shows...which often seem to be all about fitting as many notes as you can into a certain length of time...and the two drummers get extra negative points for this (some 90s drum and space routines should for ever be consigned to the pits of hell).  But, hell, I'm a fan, and have been for 30+ years since I first heard Scarlet Begonias at the age of 12.  They're as much if not more a part of my life than any other band that's ever existed, and if I was never able to hear anything by anybody else other than them for the rest of my days, I'd be more than happy....

As for basketball, didn't some (eastern European?) country once wear tye-dye colours in the olympics because the coach was a Deadhead?

Yeah, 92, the Lithuanian team, a move orchestrated by Walton who outfitted them in tie dyed uniforms, and they turned around and beat the allegedly unbeatable Americans! It was possibly 88 I forget. It was touching that they requested the American's shoes at the end of the game as they could not afford such things, whereas the NBA guys get new ones every game if they want. Eastern Europe has done much to reteach us our own game, with its emphasis on teamwork as opposed to showmanship and gimme the ball, they have been a real boon to both basketball and hockey in North America. Highly recommend Phil Jackson's book of about 20 years ago called Sacred Hoops. I have to say if you missed out on Michael Jordan the basketball player, not the guy used to sell product, you missed out on the closest thing to Jimi Hendrix since Jimi Hendrix, I will define that no further.

And a great idea it was too.  Allegedly.   ;D

The pic is from '96 I think...'92 was the time they won the Bronze...



[attachment deleted by admin]

Ok, I'm now laughing but for reasons few would understand ... Hee Hee!

I lived in California for a few years in the mid-90s. When I arrived, I knew nothing about the country's various sports stars but I did see, on all major TV channels, this guy who used to advertise underpants. He had the catchphrase "I'm Michael Jordan... And you've been briefed"

So, with that in mind, was he noodling when he was dribbling?  ???  :o  :D Actually, I don't want to know!

I will agree to disagree about your assessment at least of the Drums aspect of the Drums Space section, finding that to be DEAD wrong, however once Jerry started using all that new technology that supposedly sounded like flutes or various other instruments I will agree the space section suffered after 89. Even after 90 I can thing of no other act that is filed under rock that could have summoned to their stage as playing participants Ornette Coleman, David Murray and Branford Marsalis. Yeah I know Branford played with Sting along with his bad ass buddies Kirkland and Tain Watts, but not like THAT.

Sh!t - I turn my back on you guys for 2 hours and suddenly you're talking about basketball?!?!

[taps gavel on wooden desk]

Back on topic, gentlemen, please!  (And yes it is the first time I've ever said that here!)

 :)

Jules

As incredible as it may seem, Grateful Dead have completely passed me by. So it is a genuine request, and I'm ready and prepared to receive the deluge, can anyone suggest a good CD/LP as a good starting point. Note, I can't afford to go out and buy loads, so I'm wanting to spend my money wisely.

So it's, at least for me, not where next, but where to start...

A fairly safe place to start are the albums Workingman's Dead and American Beauty. To gently dip your toes in. Even if The Grateful Dead end up not really being your thing, these two albums might still be works you'll return to.
Me, I seem to be among the very few who really like (most of) the album Terrapin Station. Always been mightily in love with the epic title track, though live it's way more awesome than the studio version which is kinda overproduced.
To equally gently dip your toes in live work, try the triple Europe '72.  

American Beauty.  And then either Grateful Dead (aka "Skull & Roses", live 1971) or Live '72 to see if you dig the live stuff.  And then Workingman's Dead for your next studio purchase.  Get those four and either stop or continue.   :)

Jules

Sound advice. ::)

PS
I currently stare blankly at the rows of Dead albums in my collection - I have them all, though the last 3-4 years of releases have passed me by. Indeed, where to start? That's a good question.
Studio: I stand by what I say above.
Live: er, um, well. I often return to '72 and '77 shows on the whole, more than other years. But there are so many releases: which live highpoints are on which CD? It's been a while since I had a long Dead phase ('tis time for one actually). Maybe, live, you're better off getting advised on years rather than albums. For instance, I like 1972. Rockin' The Rhein and Hundred Year Hall are excellent live 72 albums in addition to earlier mentioned Europe '72.
Oh, and should you like Workingman's Dead and American Beauty, do try the debut album by close cousins New Riders Of The Purple Sage. Same era and comes from the same womb, with several key Dead members having been a member in its pre-debut album stage. And it features Jerry Garcia.

It would be ever so much easier to say which ones to stay away from, though certainly even their worst have some merit. Stay away from Aoxomoxoa, Shakedown St., Terrapin Station, Steal Your Face and their last one where they have the deck of cards, name escapes my mind. Before anyone comes rushing to the defense of say, Aoxomoxoa much of it is taking up by drek such as Whats Become of Baby. BTW many would include Go to Heaven and the big one with Touch of Grey on it as ones to stay away from, i would not. The Touch of Grey one, In the Dark that was it, is merely guilty, along with MTV's Day of the Dead of opening the door to Metallica fans and mallworld from which the Dead "scene" was dealt a mighty blow to the group mind, simply, most people don't behave and many ended up in prison including the not guilty, that new wave never got "it" and were there for their belligerent party, essentially peeing in what in many aspects had been a place of group worship and life celebration, and not necessarily of the band itself .  And doubtless many of the ones I mention as ones to stay away from include material that fleshed out in live performance become real milestones, god knows Terrapin Station was, but the albums were not really happening, it is a correct and long held opinion of thousands at least that the Grateful Dead is something that happens in real time and cannot be accurately captured under glass as it were. I would so heartily recommend a visit to any of the following sites, sugarmegs, internet archive, the grateful dead hour, dead to the world, or the deads own site where freebies are regularly available. If you are from France maybe glom onto some of their French shows, I know they did one I think at a castle in Dijon in 74 before maybe 200 people, all dosed including the band, I recall that was a good one. I am pretty sure last time thru Paris they played quite well, in 90, though David MJS may disagree :-* Beware though, people who end up liking the Dead usually don't like them just a little, unless they are approaching the band thru the familiar American Beauty or Workingman's Dead corridor, nice albums though they may be, they speak more to the mindset of the Band  or CSNY filtered thru the Grateful Dead prism. I always find a gentle, if not particularly representative starting point to be the double live largely acoustic Reckoning from 80. So there.

That sort of narrows things down a bit... lol

However the rest of Aoxomoxoa is a great document of their early trippy style.  I was much impressed by the album.  It's dense and certainly not easy listening, but to tell someone to stay away does the record a serious injustice IMO.

Jules

I, and far more importantly, the band, would dispute that claim, indeed it includes the milestone that is China Cat in a form slightly lame as compared to nearly any of its live performances, including poor interpretations of what became quality live tracks in the form of Mountains of the Moon and Cosmic Charlie. Forgot to mention Rosemary, also in the running for their worst track ever, and one, like What's Become of Baby were never afforded the dignity of a live performance, best kept a secret. The best example, right down to the tantric cover of their early psychedelic style, if it absoloutely has to be a studio record, is Anthem of the Sun, pretty nearly flawless Grateful Dead front to back, probably my favorite of any of their standard releases, and again, don't ask me, ask the band and people for whom the Grateful Dead have been upwards to a 45 year way of life. For everyone? Of course not. The Rolling Stones sound guy Dave Hattinger tried to be the producer of Anthem of the Sun and when, on top of all the other weirdness going on, Weir requested the sound of "thick air", (they had actually recorded the sound of both the desert and downtown LA to try and acheive this effect on their own)Hattinger threw up his hands and ran from the studio screaming, never to return. Surely out of the amount of money and time I have spent in support of the Grateful Dead I am entitled to a "serious injustice" uh, guvnor. After all its just an opinion then innit?

The Further Tour has been absolutely wonderful.  Saw them in Asheville NC a couple of weeks ago.  The guitarist from DSO is doing the trick for 'em.  They sound like the Dead again!  Thomas Wolfe Auditorium is only a 2300 seater, so it felt a lot more like '77 too - except for the ticket price ($83 vs $6!!)

If you haven't gotten the movie soundtrack from the Winterland '74 shows, that's a definite must.  David's right about '72 - any show from the Europe or the US Fall tour from that year will reward you well.

You can pin me down on a show here and there after '81, but........life's too short to sort through most of that stuff.  

I don't know how many shows u saw after 81 Wiley but I saw about 90 and I would mark in real time live performance their live "batting average" was never higher or more reliable than 83 thru 90. People reflexively mark 69, 72 or 77 as their peak, all excellent choices but the sophistication of their level of improvisation got ever higher, although with wide open favorites like Dark Star, New Potato, Born Cross Eyed regrettably put into dry dock, occasional appearances from Dark Star but sometimes as many as five years in between, all Jerry's idea. Yep, that part was Jerry's fault. One happy development over their last 15 years or so is their catalogue became so large that in those years you would never see a song played more that once every four shows, with always a surprise or two popping up, like Death Don't Have No Mercy being brought back after 20 years in 89, I think the same night Dark Star made its first reappearance since the show at the Greek I saw in 84, it was greeted like the Ark of the Lost Covenant being brought in the arena, that was the night I think in Charlotte when they had billed themselves as the Warlocks, their original name, to ward off the aggressive party creeps who had bulldozed their way in, leaving garbage in their wake. Prior to that when the Dead left towns after 3 or 4 day runs parking lots would be clean and local opinion was very positive, man did that change.
But man are u spot on in recommending that October run at Winterland in 74, especially considering the sound monstrosity it was upon original release as Steal Your Face in 75 or 6. The sound on that re release is so good as to be astonishing, and the animation sequences in the movie from a guy named Gary Gutirez, who remarkably was not even a Deadhead is well worthwhile, as well as the 2 year olds dancing on the stage. Only the Grateful Dead.

Some may not be surprised to know that little list includes, imho, 2 of my favourite Dead albums  ;D

Oh I never let an artist's opinion of their own work get in the way of the truth.   ;)

But yes, I agree that Anthem is the better album of that period.  I was just saying that Aoxomoxoa is no slouch.  It is, however, a difficult word to type.   :o

Jules

As you have just proved!  ;D

I couldn't agree more with not taking artist's opinion of their own work at face value. If we did that there would have been no need for Dylan's Bootleg Series albums. This is a man who thought that Blind Willie McTell was somehow not good enough or not appropriate to be included on Infidels and therefore didn't release it at all for over a decade!

Back on topic and following on from the discussion in Listening To, I would like to point out that I am far too young to have had the benefit of seeing Grateful Dead live.  ;D

Actually I did have one opportunity on their last visit to the UK. I intended to go but to my eternal regret I didn't make it. The received wisdom is that "live" is their real constituency and you can never get the full effect from the records but the records are all I have to go on. Like Jules, I prefer the more structured song based stuff and my first encounters with the Dead were their 80s material, which I like, so that inevitably colours my approach to their ouevre. So, for example, at the risk of speaking heresy, I admire Dark Star more than like it but my first response to it was that it was more jazz than rock. On the other hand I love extended workouts on Truckin' or Terrapin Station or One More Saturday Night.

But live or on record, I don't think I would ever enjoy drum solos!

I don't know what you're talking about.  [innocent whistle]



Indeed.  There's dozens of examples with Bob.  Artists are not always their own best editors or critics.



And at the risk of further heresy, I think Live/Dead was the CD I enjoyed least in the entire Golden Road box, for similar reasons.

Jules

[/quote]



, I admire Dark Star more than like it but my first response to it was that it was more jazz than rock. !
[/quote]

Allegedly based on Miles Davis' "So What?"  :)

While I have never heard or read that the opening notes are not dissimalar, while not being the out and out copying that Steely Dan did with Horace Silvers Song For My Father. Not surprisingly all the Dead but particularly Lesh are massive Miles fans and had the very frightening, to them, experience of having Miles Bitches Brew band open for them at the Fillmore West. Miles had the kindest things to say about the Dead but Steve Miller also on the bill, Miles said, "is a no talent mf." Not a fan of Steve Miller but I kinda felt bad for him.

Neil Young & Crazy Horse were on the same bill, and I think Miles gave them the thumbs up too.

Jules

I can give you a nod for some great shows in '83 and '84.  Garcia looked like death warmed over but he still had some chops left.  After the coma in '86 though, I feel his playing never truly recovered, although he was listening and paying more attention during '89 - '91.  However, if you think the shows between '85 and '88 were better than, say, '79 thru '81, you were on better drugs than me during that time - and that's saying a lot! ;)

The Warlocks show was Hampton - Fall '89.  And it was spectacular for Attics of My Life and the return of Help-Slip-Franks as well.  I was there, "starry-eyed and laughing."  

Being at the Greek in '84 must have been transcendental when they broke out Dark Star for the encore, but when I listen to it, the Bird Song they played earlier in the run was far more exploratory.  

By the same token, even the longer later Dark Stars were tedious, confused and not extremely interesting.

Yes, I'm a horrible snob about it all.  I'm sorry.

Now, Raymond, I would assume you were at the Uptown shows in Oct. '80, right? That Playing-Comes a Time-Playing out of Drums has always been one of my all time favorite Dead moments!!! ;D

Lol.  Don't worry about it...that's a tag that would stick to most of us, I guess  ;) :)

Unbelievably enough I was dead straight for roughly half of the Dead performances I have witnessed, and all Tull shows since the early seventies, taab, passion play and war child i saw heavily dosed. But that Greek run I was dosed on both Saturday and Sunday, barely got in in time for the Friday show from Chicago. Have not looked again at the set list but I am quite certain the Birdsong to which u refer, as I remember it well with its uh, brilliant colors, was on either the Saturday or Sunday in the brilliant Cali sunshine. I lived in the Bay area all those years they were playing at the Uptown so I saw nothing but I have heard it, choice biscuits. We will just have to agree to disagree, particularly as regards 87, and surely at least you have heard some of the Jerry band discs from the nineties, sounds suspicially like a Jer bear at the top of his game to me, maybe happy to be freed of the sometimes geekazoid offerings of poor old Vinnie Welnick, doubtless a marvelous player but better suited to the Tubes from whence he came, even though i know he loved and deeply appreciated the job.

I'd certainly agree that the JGB (and indeed his acoustic work with Grisman) is where Jerry was a) happiest, and b) did by far his best work in the last years of his life.  No doubt of that, in my mind.

Poor Vince!  He was trapped inside an R. Crumb comic for various personal reasons!  His was a deeply sad and disturbing story.  :'(

JGB in the '90s could certainly be very pretty on a good night - but never mind blowing, like Legion of Mary or something like the Stone shows in SF, circa 1980.

I remember '87 as a happy time 'cause Jerry was....well...alive!  I did the entire Summer and Autumn tours that year, except the West Coast.  The Morning Dew at Madison Square that year gets a lot of hype, but the Wharf Rat on the 2nd night was truly epic - best post '78 Rat, no question!  Shared a rollercoaster ride with Brent Mydland in Toronto that summer - which gave us something to talk about while we drank together in a Transvestite C&W Bar in New Orleans a year later!  Otherwise, it was a big year for Bucket-Sugaree openers, as I remember!

I am enjoying the general Dead yakkery, but any further nominations of essential live CDs beyond the two big boxed sets?  Especially from the 1970-2 era, and with the emphasis on songs over jamming.

Jules

To me thats a good thing Bucket was likely my favorite of the latter day pieces, yeah I know, overplayed, to the extent that anything by them was overplayed it was still only every 4 shows, and Sugaree was a constant winner to me, just a matter of how excellent. I seem to recall reading or hearing that Brent got pretty nuts in their first return trip to NO since the famous bust quoted in Truckin. I also want to give some ups to 90 either with Brent or the early shows without him, best Vince ever sounded, saw the first 2 of those in Cleveland, he was very warmly welcomed as u can imagine, and of course the spectre of Brent hung heavily over those shows, particularly during Drums which seemed very much like the Dead sending Brents spirit out on their own terms. Highly recommend 7/6/90 in Louisville, one of the last times I saw them when they were truly fantastic, massive China Rider bridge to open the second set, they just kept on goosin that sucker til it shot all over everybody, umm hmm.  

Never heard it, but will have done soon...its nice to hear something personally recommended
http://www.archive.org/details/gd90-07-06.sbd.miller.12770.sbeok.shnf

 :o Fantastic ;D  I needed a chuckle, cheers!

That was indeed my favourite bit of rock n roll writing so far in 2010.  Nice one, Raymond!

Jules

Jules,

- Dick's Pick Baltimore '72
- Dick's Pick Philadelphia '72
- Winterland 12-73 Box Set (All 3 nights!)
- Dick's Picks Oklahoma City '73
- Dick's Picks Boston Garden / Providence '74
- Truckin' in England '72
- Hundred Year Hall, Germany '72
- Rockin' the Rhine, Germany '72

Those are my favorite legitimate releases, besides the GD Movie soundtrack mentioned above - you need to get that one!  :)

As it happens I'm just listening to "From The Vault 3" Capitol Theatre (Yes, UK spelling, on sleeve at least!), Portchester NY, 19th Feb '71. Whole show with a nice first set of songs with a little jamming & a strong 2nd set with some jamming (Cryptical / Other One), plus stand alone songs. Neat little Billy solo & a not too offensive Pig "Good Lovin'", finishing with a stirring "Casey Jones" "Drivin' that train".....etc. Also first outings for "Deal" & "Birdsong". Nice  :)

Yes, I fancy this one.  Thanks.

Also will look into your suggestions, Pat.  Thanks.

Jules

Gee thanks folks, all of those are excellent choices, kind of hard to miss, but that Hundred Year Hall is a particularly delicious beastie.

Also rather nice from the same tour is a 3 disc set called "Dutch Treat" from 11th May '72, Civic Hall, Rotterdam. Hmm, next up I think  :)

Had a listen to those two tracks.  Nice last 2 minutes of China and a good solid Rider....

However in some ways it also illustrates what I don't like about later GD....that, sorry, plinky plonky 'piano' sound and the truly unpleasant sound effects at the start of China.  The drums are too cosy, too formulaically 'loose'.  It never quite breaks free like the decent stuff does.  I guess you had to be there.  And I wish I had been, of course....I'd probably feel very differently about it if I had been.

The Rotterdam show has been released legit??!!  :o

Oops. What Rotterdam show?!  ::)

Mind you, David, I've always said it very quietly, but.........I think they did a lot better with just one drummer.

Is this where we start talking about which version of Sloth we like best?  ;D

Well, everybody knows Sloth went down hill when...............HEY!  >:(

;)

I agree (and I said the same thing somewhere in this whole GD discussion fest too!)....

Well here's a fresh one to bore yourself with sometime in the next year David the very last time I saw them in full flower, (the last show that u mention which I was at was anything but happening in the venue, you may know that tour was labeled the tour from hell, with loads of problems, long term arrests, and deaths, gate crashers)on a Monday night in Cleveland, shortly after the removal of Dan Healy to a shaky Bob Bralove, and a literal convention of DEA agents outside looking precisely like Deadheads, even playing wooden flutes, took over an hour to get in, they even went thru your wallet. When and if you listen to it I recommend starting with the then recently re introduced Willie Dixon chestnut Same Thing, the point at which Bralove got the sound up to proper volume and the place went into full blown ritual formation, and the show never settled down from that point. Many people reviewing it mark the Stella as amongst the best ever. Never so sure about any or all of that but I do know it was one delicious evening after all the hassles.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd94-03-21.sbd.ladner.6258.sbeok.shnf

It sure isn't the longest!   ;)

Jules

It also does not involve RT.

My preffered Dead listening at the moment is:

http://www.deaddisc.com/disc/Steppin_Out.html

Oooops!  

Hey Jules!  Strike that "Truckin' in England" rubbish I said earlier, Neil just reminded me that the actual title is "Steppin' Out.........in England, '72."

Sorry about that one - a lovely collection, indeed!

Thanks Neil!!    

Interested to pick up on the Steppin' Out '72 stuff - saw the Grateful Dead at the wonderful Bickershaw Featival that very year - whilst dodgy recordings are available, my abiding memory is of a great gig - bear in mind this was prior to the passing of the Night Assemblies Bill to prevent all night shenanigans like 4am Beefheart the previous night/morning(truly memorable)- New Riders of the Purle Sage kicked of what morphed into a marathon session as the Dead seamlessly took over. They didn't like the cold, Weir in particular! We were really, really knackered - but it was ace! When they started " Goin' Down The Road Feelin' Bad" half of us were already there!

Roll on Cropprers!

It's OK, I found it.  Some of these CDs had bonus discs when first issued.  I'd be loath to buy a copy without the bonus disc.   :(

Jules

What should have dropped into my in box today but an alert to the next "Road Trips". Relevant in as much as it's another early 70's show. Complete show (hooray!) + bonus disc from a couple of nights earlier. Only one drummer, one of Keith G's first shows, more songs than jams, Dark Star> El Paso> Dark Star sandwich, mmm, what's not to like?  :)
Recorded live at Municipal Auditorium Austin, TX (November 15, 1971)
All selections are previously unissued recordings
DISC 1
1. Truckin'
2. Bertha
3. Playing In The Band
4. Deal
5. Jack Straw
6. Loser
7. Beat It On Down The Line
8. Dark Star>
9. El Paso>
10. Dark Star
11. Casey Jones
12. One More Saturday Night

DISC 2
1. Me And My Uncle
2. Ramble On Rose
3. Mexicali Blues
4. Brokedown Palace
5. Me And Bobby McGee
6. Cumberland Blues
7. Sugar Magnolia
8. You Win Again
9. Not Fade Away>
10. Jam>
11. Goin' Down The Road Feeling Bad>
12. Not Fade Away
13. Johnny B. Goode

Bonus CD: (while supplies last) Texas Christian University in Forth Worth, Texas (11/14/71).

1. China Cat Sunflower>
2. I Know You Rider
3. Sugaree
4. Truckin'>
5. Drums>
6. The Other One>
7. Me And My Uncle>
8. The Other One>
9. Wharf Rat>
10. Sugar Magnolia

Available from: http://www.dead.net/road-trips/road-trips-volume-3-number-2
Get 'em while thy're hot.

Dammit, but that looks tasty!

Jules

As someone who has been ambivalent about the Dead in the past this is another of my favourites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick's_Picks_Volume_4

This is depressing... Reading this thread I realise that I must have got it wrong for the last 40, very odd, years... (Bit like discovering that Bob Hunter wrote most of the lyrics for the album that became 'American Beauty' whilst living in Earls Court) but, for my ears Aoxomoxoa is a stone classic, almost definitive, Dead album. I can't be bothered to defend it, one man's meat is another man's poison, but really???? To steer somebody away from it, in such unequivocal terms as applied here would appear to be a little irresponsible, to say the least.

Actually, I will defend it a little, if only to redress the balance:

Premise:

Aoxomoxoa is an essential 'stop over' for anybody who is interested in 'getting' the Dead - Discuss

If you don't hear Aoxomoxoa you will miss out on the definitive takes on both 'Cosmic Charlie' (wherein Garcia redefines the use of the bottle neck) and 'Mountains of the Moon' (the most absolute, no quarter given, few minutes of pure psychedelia ever committed to vinyl). Sure, those are the highlights of the album and sure, it would be silly to argue that 'What's become of the baby' stands up without the aid of some very strong psychedelics (I like very strong psychedelics) but it's a psychedelic album for god's sake - 'Either go away or come all the way in' covers that one - and should be judged by that standard.

At the end of the day you are either 'on the bus or off of it' - it really doesn't matter. What matters is that it's there and, if on it, you are in the driving seat. If you 'dip' your toe into the Dead canon you will almost certainly find yourself on a musical adventure that will hold your interest for the rest of your listening life.. Sometimes they will bore, frustrate, puzzle and madden you (no collective of musicians have ever taken so many wrong turns) and sometimes they will, amuse, astound, elevate and enable you (no collective of musicians have ever taken so many right turns)... And yes, they do 'noodle' but oh, such noodles, fit for a king..

'Does god look down on the boys in the bar room
Mainly forsaken but surely not judged
Jacks, Kings & Aces, their faces entwined
Do lord, deliver our kind.

From sin, from whiskey, three strings on the fiddle
Four, for the guitar, a song that I love
Many's the time we've spent picking & singing
In hopes it be pleasing both here and above' - Robert Hunter

Not sure it's depressing (or irresponsible!)...but interesting certainly.  But I agree with your viewpoint wholeheartedly....

Mike, you had me up until this statement, at which point your post simply became a long-winded restatement of Ray's point: if you aren't prepared to embrace full-blown psychedelia, then you should steer clear of Aoxomoxoa ...

Is that stone, or stoned?

I've always enjoyd a strange relationship with the Dead (no sniggering at the back...) in that more often than not I'm disapointed with them.  To my mind they always promised more than they delivered & I'm just a  little bored with the 'well, you should've seen 'em live' line that is always trotted out in matters deadly - most of their contemporaries managed to make great records but why excuse the dead?  They did mange some good studio albums but most of them are a tad lame to my ears.
I never caught them live (too young in their glory days of 67 - 74) & by the time I the had the chance in 1980 I turened it down as I didn't like what they were doing on record around that time (I did catch Bob Wer's Ratdog at canterbury Fayre in 2003 though - and they were great..). However, before I trundle on down the negative lane I also love the Dead for what they were & how out of kilter they were with the mainstream and the magical moments when they really got it right and made some truly magical music.  To understand what was special about them you need to really listen to 'Live/Dead' .  'Dark Star' isn't jazz but it's not 'standard' rock either  but it is a superb example of group interplay and improvisation within a rock format. A lot of bands of the era who went the improv route tended to hammer away in the manner of Cream on a bad day whereas the axis of Garcia, Weir and Lesh play with superb dynamics and empathy .  In feel and mood it's not a million miles away from Miles Davis's 'Sshh/Peaceful' from 'In a Silent Way' (both 1969). But for my money the most thrilling Dead moment is 'The Eleven' - again from 'Live/Dead' as I've never heard them play with such power and joy.  I suppose I prefer the 'jamminmg' side more than their songs but I rate 'Workingman's Dead' and 'American Beauty' very highly (which seems to be the usual line...) 'Two from the vault' (1968 live stuff) has some ace stuff - but has  a tepid 'Dark Star' .  'Anthem of the Sun' is pure acid rock heaven the first album has its moments and is a more energetic/garagy Dead than latter stuff.  I note that Sandra was groovin to 'Vintage Dead' recently - I've got an old vinyl copy of this & i don't rate this at all, but 'Historic Dead' - more early stuff dredged up & released in early 70s is better...
For me, the nub of all this is that I wish they'd stayed more 'Psychadelic' and they never ever seemed able to record their drummers properly...but on the plus side:  Garcia was one of the most expressive and individualistic guitar players and Weir still one of the most underated rhythm players...

Cheers All!
Slippy 8)

Bob

I think that your reply highlights the inadequacies of my writing skills rather than the point I was, longwindedly, endeavouring to make; which was the opposite of Ray's.

My point was that the Dead, up to an including Live Dead, were a psychedelic band with a target audience of psychedelically attuned music lovers (lest we forget, they came of age through the Acid Tests) and that anything they released during that formative period must be viewed from that perspective. Within this context it is ludicrous to advise somebody that is looking to discover what the band are about to 'steer clear' of what, by any standards, is a seminal psychedelic album - A bit like advising somebody that was interested in Paul Butterfield to steer clear of 'East West' because it's 'too bluesy' - That would be risible.

Further to this it seems to me that it would be difficult to get acquainted with the Dead without giving a nod to Bob Hunter and, if nothing else (and there was plenty else) Aoxomoxoa was the album where he set out his stall, China Cat Sunflower, St Stephen, Mountains of the Moon, Cosmic Charlie? The first two in that list have been central to the Dead's career and it seems a trifle perverse to harp on about how great this or that concert was in the same breath as denouncing the very record that introduced them to the record buying world.

Thanks for the warning!  ;D

As a lad, Aoxomoxoa was a great companion to listen to while ravenously devouring Oreos and reading Freak Brother comic books!   O0

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the band Fairport may well have become but for them pesky copyright laws :o

I don't follow you, Jim.   ???

Jules

As it's (just over) 41 years since the run at Fillmore West that produced "Live / Dead", thought I'd dig out one of my favourite shows from the era, 1st March 1969. First disc is (Set1) Cryptical>O1>Cryptical>New Potato>Doin' That Rag>Cosmic Charlie (Disc 2) Dupree's>MOTM, (Set2) Dark Star>St. Stephen>The Eleven>Lovelight E: Hey Jude, None of these versions appeared on the official release.

Interestingly, one of the opening acts was Pentangle. Now there's a pairing I'd like to have seen jamming together!  :)

Apparently they did jam together during that run of shows - Given their penchant for recording their shows but the dearth of same when collaborating I suspect they switched the tape machines off for that part of the show; have never managed to find anything of the sets they played with Miles or Etta James either

When Norm and DM left Fairport after Babbacombe Lee, i believe Swarb and Peggy were a bit dubious of going out as FC as no original members were left and considered changing the name to the Furry Freak Brothers, but i believe Mr Crumbs attorneys at law were not altogether in favour of the change of brand name

I didn't know that.  Thanks for the enlightenment, Jim.

Jules

Mr Crumb ? ???

robert crumb, the bloke who did the furry freaks and fat freddies cat

They weren't Robert Crumb, Jim, they were Gilbert Shelton et al.

Jules

Who, incidentally, also did the artwork for Shakedown Street.

Did you see what I did there?   ;D

well i'll be damned, sorry about that bit of duff info, i never knew that , i must have been told it or assumed it and never found out any different until now
thanks for putting me right, thats one thing i've learnt today 8)

Woah!  Rilly outtasite, Dave, man!   :o

Jules

"Well, well, well, you can never tell"  :)

Me too. You live and learn...

Mr Crumb is a Very Odd Bloke. One of the first x-rated films I ever went to see was "Fritz The Cat" - which is a cartoon. I had a book of his that my Mum would occasionally pick up and try to read to the kids, mistaking a cartoon book for a children's book.

She soon put it down though, poor dear. ;D

Have y'all seen this one yet?  Its a totally legitimate, illustrated rendition of the entire Book of Genesis (KJV).  Its brilliant!  HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!  

When you think about it, Crumb is the perfect choice to render much of the paranoia and perversion inherent in the first book of the Bible.

Last Sunday, I was sitting in the church office, when Juiian, this 97 year old presbyter, plopped the book on the desk, raving about it!  

Never thought I'd see the day where R. Crumb material was making the rounds at the First Presbyterian Church!  It was like being 14 years old again, watching my drunk parents and their friends dancing to my T-Rex records!  :o  

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It was in my Christmas stocking. Great stuff.

Nice Santa... Can I 'ave one dad?

Digging around last night to find my copy of Bob Weir's Ace to put on my Ipod, I discovered a copy of Aoxomoxoa that I didn't know I even had!  :-[ That means that I already owned about a quarter of the contents of The Golden Road before I bought it.

I also have nearly half of the Beyond Description box which I was considering buying. Bizarrely the Amazon price for it jumped up by £20 yesterday so I am now thinking of investigating individual albums. So what, other than From The Mars Hotel, In The Dark and Without A Net, what from the official releases between 1973 & 1990 is worth a listen?

I am often told that the expanded acoustic live set Reckoning is a must.

Jules

If anyone's near a telly with Sky Arts 1 available the making of Anthem Of The Sun and American Beauty is on now.

I watched that on DVD on Monday.  Very good.  I only wish it had been longer and covered the albums in between in more detail.

Jules

I remember seeing that on BBC2 some years ago. Part of the Classic Albums series. "Anthem to Beauty".

Still worth having The Golden Road box for the expanded remastered versions of the albums though, Gub.

And I'm sure the Beyond Description box will yo-yo in price again.  It might be worth getting that second box some day rather than finding out you're likely to buy it all bit by bit anyway.

Jules

Wise words. The weird thing was that the price changed between yesterday morning and yesterday afternoon. Last week it was as cheap as £68. Now it is up to £93!

The Golden Road went all through the £70s, up to the high £80s, then back down to the £70s before hitting the £60+ price we both got it for.  Who knows why they do these things?  I'm sure they have their reasons, but economics and business studies continue to be two areas of human life that leave me both baffled and bored
sh!tless.   ::)

Jules

IMO, the best picks from this "era" would be Blues For Allah, Reckoning and Terrapin Station (Side A only).

Allah is certainly their last complete major work, and while a convincing criticism can be made about the overproduction of the Terrapin suite, its still a very pretty thing to hear and totally unique.  Reckoning is must have, camp fire Dead - essential, really. :)

Of the studio output, for me, "Wake Of The Flood" is outstanding. Live? Where to begin? :)

That's why I was limiting myself to the official contemporary releases. I don't think I have enough years to wade my way through all of the Dick's Picks and every other archival release alongside all of my other musical obsessions (and there are many!)

You miss, imho, 90% of the reality of what was the Grateful Dead if you take that approach, but I can understand it does feel quite overwhelming.  That's why the standard advice is to go for a year (say, '69, '72, '77, '83 or whatever), and just see where the journey takes you...

The great things about live recordings as opposed to official live releases is that they are generally unedited and you hear them in real time with the audience.  And buy some good 'phones  :)

Yep, I concur with David. However, if you have to have official releases, to start you off, here are some suggestions.

19/12/73 Tampa, Florida, "Dick's Picks 1".

13/08/75 Great American Music Hall. "One From The Vault".

19 & 21/05/77 Fox Theatre, Atlanta & Lakeland Civic Center, Lakeland, "Dick's Picks 29" or
22/05/77 Pembroke Pines. Dick's Picks 3.

06/05/81 Nassau Coliseum "Dick's Picks 13".

15/03/90 Capital Centre, Landover. "Terrapin Station". or
24-26/03/90 Knickerbocker Arena, Albany. "Dozin' At The Knick".

Good luck.  :)

Oh, and "Dick's Picks Volume 15": Englishtown, NJ, September 3, 1977. A cracker. I'll shut up now   :).

The records do have their charms though!  

Unless you were in the inner sanctum of tape trading rings, the only thing you had in the 70s were the studio and live albums, with a few hissy radio recording (one likely being the '75 Great American Music Hall just mentioned by Ian).

We were still crazy about 'em before the flood gates were open, right?  ;D

It certainly does.  I even picked a year, or two (1971/2), and I still find it hard to choose which title to buy!   ???

Jules

Why worry about it any longer then...why not just start here...http://www.archive.org/details/GratefulDead   :)

I'm a CD buyer, David.  I can't help it!  I just don't tend to download things.  I haven't the patience or the technical know-how.  And most of the time I'm at a PC I don't have unlimited access either.

Jules

Besides, such a site makes the choice even harder!

Jules

I just tried. Bose Quiet Comfort 15s but they were out of stock at the manufacturer!  :(

I tend not to use 'phones these days.  My ears are prone to all sorts of aches and pains.

Jules

That's exactly what I've got.  Luverley.....

Amazon has one on sale (through an intermediary)...  Apple normally sell them too...

I can't remember if 'Wake of the Flood' was 73 or 4 so not sure if it falls within your catchment but definitely worth the price of admission.. A wonderful album packaged in an equally wonderful cover - A gem

'73 - should be the first one out of the gate.

Jaysuss £350 dabs for a pair of headphones :o
ive been looking for a pair since our Siobhan's feckin bunnies chewed through the lead of my £20 technics, which were great but its a bugger to find any with a 4 metre lead any more.
 the lad has a pair of skullcandy headphones he paid £34 for off amazon and they are good but they ony come with a 4 foot lead

Whilst following the "Zabriskie Point" link (thanks Jules), this popped into view.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crimson-White-Indigo-Philadelphia-July/dp/B0037RBVH4/ref=dp_return_1?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music

OK its on Rhino not GD, but the price? Even with a DVD included.  :o

Further details from Deadnet, but no price, yet:

http://www.dead.net/features/dead-world-roundup/new-philly-89-dvd-cd-set-coming-soon

Talking of which...its just been pointed out on a GD list I belong to...that today, 37 years ago, Mr Ron McKernan passed away at the ridiculously early age of 27.  Got to rip open a Pigpen Lovelight in remembrance methinks...

27?  Spooky.... we all know about that little rock n roll myth don't we...

Slippy
 8)

Might be seen as a tad morbid by some, o well, but I always thought the inscription on Pig's burial stone, which the old zine The Golden Road showed a picture of years ago, was pretty cool.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=1724&PIpi=77034

I think they did a perfect job with the wording of that.  Not sure about the design of the stone, but I do like the words.

Jules

Does that mean playing a CD with Lovelight on it, or something more bizarre?

Jules

You have got a suspicious mind, Sir!  I think in truth, you know the answer to the question, don't you....

You dawwwwwwwg!!!   ::)

Jules

I just came across this one on Amazon:-

Grateful Dead Download Series Vol. 3: The Palestra, Rochester, NY, 10/26/71

I just had a preview listen and it's goooooood!!

I may have to get over my fear of downloading after all.

Jules

This was on another music forum...nice little collection of tributes to Pigpen...


A selection of Pigpen videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_aX1Z_pHBQ (Hard to Handle 7-3-70)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa9kWiiuV_s (Easy Wind 7-1-70)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V752p6IMWjw (Hurts Me Too 4-17-72)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8B_YY327Pk (Next Time You See Me
4-17-72)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIwhr_S4gAc (Chinatown Shuffle 4-17-72)

Phil Lesh:
"He cultivated a biker image, but he was more the Marlon Brando Wild Ones
sensitive, brooding type. But funkier, way funkier - he had a leather shirt
that I saw him wear every day I knew him. Never was Pigpen more at home than
with a bottle of wine and a guitar, at home or at some party, improvising
epic blues rant lyrics, playing Lightnin' Hopkins songs, and doing Lord
Buckley routines. For him, joining the Mother McCree's jug band with Bob and
Jerry was just a small step away from what he did anyway. Garcia told me it
was Pigpen's idea to turn Mother McCree's into an electric blues band. When
the band turned into the Grateful Dead, Pig became our keel, our roots, our
fundamental tone. Pig was the perfect front man for the Dead: intense,
commanding, comforting; but I don't think he enjoyed doing that quite as
much as sitting on a couch with a guitar and a jug."

Jerry Garcia:
"Pigpen was the only guy in the band who had any talent when we were
starting out. He was genuinely talented. He also had no discipline, but he
had reams of talent. And he had that magical thing of being able to make
stuff up as he went along. He also had great stage presence. The ironic
thing was that he hated it - it really meant nothing to him; it wasn't what
he liked. We had to browbeat him into being a performer. His best
performances were one-on-one, sitting in a room with an acoustic guitar.
That's where he was really at home and at his best.
"Out in front of the crowd he could work the band, and he'd really get the
audience going. He always had more nerve than I could believe.
He'd get the audience on his side, and he'd pick somebody out (like a
heckler) and get on them... He was the guy who really sold the band, not me
or Weir. Pigpen is what made the band work."

Mickey Hart:
"Pigpen was the musician in the Grateful Dead. When I first met the Grateful
Dead, it was Pigpen and the boys. It was a blues band...
Pigpen was a kind man. He looked so hard, but he was a kind, soft man.
That's why he had to look so tough, because he was so kind, he would get
stepped on... If there was one black chick in the audience, he'd always go
home with her. Somehow he'd always have her up by his organ...by the end of
the evening, she'd be up sitting on his stool.
He just loved black women... He was the blues: he lived it, and he believed
it, and he got caught in that web and he couldn't break out.
And it killed him... He was just living the blues life: singing' the blues
and drinkin' whiskey. That's what all blues guys did."

Tom Constanten:
"Pigpen's father was a blues DJ who went by the name 'Cool Breeze'.
Pigpen had an encyclopedic knowledge of all the blues artists, and Pigpen
was a remarkable blues singer. The world never got to see the full measure
of Pigpen. He could do so many things - he was so deep, so broad. I used to
room with him on the road and I shared a house with him in Novato. I mean
you'd look at him and see this Hell's Angel sort of character who sings this
narrow band of music, and he was really into so many more things. Pigpen had
a different inner and outer image. While his outer image was kind of like
Pirate Pete who would shoot his gun at your feet to make you dance, yet he
was also the guy who brought a portable chess game along on the road because
he liked to play."

Ned Lagin:
"I was very surprised at who Pigpen actually turned out to be, given what I
had seen of him... I thought Pigpen would probably be on the opposite side
of the planet from me, blues tough, but he turned out to be a very sweet
person. To him, I was one of those whiz-kid rocket scientist genius kids
that he always wanted to meet, but was on a different school bus going to a
different place... But we could sit together and play piano together and
hang out together. I think there was a great sensitivity in Pigpen that was
the opposite of his down & dirty Lovelight personality."

Pigpen:
"Can't think what to write, but there's an ant hobbling around on this
table. Absquatulate with the funds, will ya? Had any prune-tang lately?
There's a broken helicopter outside the door, looking bum- tripped after
having fallen down on Happy Land St. and belonging to the people who work in
the hangar next door. Poot, still at a loss. I like fun and making people
happy. Sue just loves my blue bow."

Bob Seidemann:
"It was obvious to everybody Pigpen was dying. I photographed him a few days
before he died and he was so weak he had to be helped from the front door of
his place to the car. I wanted to do one more picture of Pig with the Dead,
so I picked him up and we drove out to Bolinas where they were rehearsing. I
said, 'Look, I've got Pig here.
Let's go outside and do a picture.' And everybody just said, 'Uh, no, Bob.
Thumbs down.' So I put Pig back in the car and on the way back he said,
'Seidemann, will you take my picture?'... It was a sad moment when those
cats wouldn't do it, and I had to drag Pig back to his apartment."

Here's one of Pigpen's last songs, called No Tomorrow. (Sorry about the poor
quality.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2R03IDGo3E

And here's Robert Petersen's poem for Pigpen, written in 1973:

& pigpen died

my eyes tequila-tortured
4 days mourning
lost another fragment
of my own self
knowing
the same brutal
night-sweats & hungers
he knew
the same cold fist
that knocked him down
now clutching furiously
at my gut

shut my eyes
& see him standing
spread-legged
on the stage of the world
the boys prodding him
egging him on
he telling all he ever knew
or cared to know

mike hand cocked like
a boxer's
head throwed back
stale whiskey blues
many-peopled destinations
neon rainy streets
& wilderness of airports
thousands maybe millions
loved him
were fired instantly
into forty-five minutes of
midnight hour
but when he died
he was thin, sick, scared
and alone

like i said to laird
i just hope he didn't hurt
too much

Jeez - that shirt must have RONKED!!!   :o

Jules

You know I loved that David. I recall Mickey relating a different story of their first east coast tour and Mickey's grandma meeting the band and her, shock I guess that these crazy kids she had been reading about in San Francisco were in part her grandson and his buddies, the first of which she met was Pig who I guess moreso than saying hello to her kind of grunted. Then Mickey said "She loved Pigpen."
I think the garment Phil is referring to was more of a vest than a shirt.

"Been chippin them rocks from dawn til doom while my rider hide my bottle in the other room."

Ah, your 'vest' = our 'waistcoat' (our 'vest' = your "undershirt").  So that means it wasn't directly akin to skin.  That's a good thing!

Jules

well i went back and listened to aoxomoxoa to see if i had missed out on something in putting it by the wayside for many years. and at least one third of it is drivel that i know the band, 2 of whom i know, and all of whom i have met at least once, would like to take back. in fact in one of my 2 conversations with daddy dead himself, jerry, we were talking about his being marked as a deity by some in the ranks, particularly the spinners, will never forget him telling me that if they think that they should talk to his kids. i did not need to be reminded of what is or what is not praiseworthy, i think my gd credentials just might rival anyone on this board, but thanks for thinking of me when u brought out your whipping stick, how thoughtful and indeed grateful of u. yeah, u know i kind of know what the ace points of the album are, all of which are so much more better evidenced in live performance. i think this was terrrr he tried to take me to the woodshed in a game of gd one upsmanship. or david mjs who apparently holds the studio works of terrapin and shakedown close to his heart. i am ever so happy for u. but they are case study one in why the gd does not work under glass. but do tell. that u have your own ears and brain is indeed a gladsome thing, but always show respect to anyone else's opinion, regardless of pedigree.

Hi there my man. I don't think I've even entered this debate. I did ask about which "Dead" album might be a good starting point (I dont own a GD lp/cd/tape but wouldn't mind finding out what turns you guys on to them) , but if that's oneupmanship, I guess I stand accused.

sorry terrrr, i made the mistake of trusting my usually quite reliable memory and it indeed was a guy named mike cole but in my rage tonite fueled on a couple fronts i did not go back and do my homework, and i issue my sincere apology, here is what i was referring to. and for someone who has been on the bus for quite some time, and is particularly knowledgable of their more wide open aspects, this has been sticking in my craw for some couple weeks, but it was easy to pass by when my anger was not so engaged. again i aint perfect, i really apologize terrrr.

This is depressing... Reading this thread I realise that I must have got it wrong for the last 40, very odd, years... (Bit like discovering that Bob Hunter wrote most of the lyrics for the album that became 'American Beauty' whilst living in Earls Court) but, for my ears Aoxomoxoa is a stone classic, almost definitive, Dead album. I can't be bothered to defend it, one man's meat is another man's poison, but really? To steer somebody away from it, in such unequivocal terms as applied here would appear to be a little irresponsible, to say the least.

Actually, I will defend it a little, if only to redress the balance:

Premise:

Aoxomoxoa is an essential 'stop over' for anybody who is interested in 'getting' the Dead - Discuss

If you don't hear Aoxomoxoa you will miss out on the definitive takes on both 'Cosmic Charlie' (wherein Garcia redefines the use of the bottle neck) and 'Mountains of the Moon' (the most absolute, no quarter given, few minutes of pure psychedelia ever committed to vinyl). Sure, those are the highlights of the album and sure, it would be silly to argue that 'What's become of the baby' stands up without the aid of some very strong psychedelics (I like very strong psychedelics) but it's a psychedelic album for god's sake - 'Either go away or come all the way in' covers that one - and should be judged by that standard.

At the end of the day you are either 'on the bus or off of it' - it really doesn't matter. What matters is that it's there and, if on it, you are in the driving seat. If you 'dip' your toe into the Dead canon you will almost certainly find yourself on a musical adventure that will hold your interest for the rest of your listening life.. Sometimes they will bore, frustrate, puzzle and madden you (no collective of musicians have ever taken so many wrong turns) and sometimes they will, amuse, astound, elevate and enable you (no collective of musicians have ever taken so many right turns)... And yes, they do 'noodle' but oh, such noodles, fit for a king..

'Does god look down on the boys in the bar room
Mainly forsaken but surely not judged
Jacks, Kings & Aces, their faces entwined
Do lord, deliver our kind.

From sin, from whiskey, three strings on the fiddle
Four, for the guitar, a song that I love
Many's the time we've spent picking & singing
In hopes it be pleasing both here and above' - Robert Hunter

No problem Raymond. We've all done the old "engage brain before opening mouth" trick. I myself take pride in more than one masterful display of it...

Keep smiling  8)

I think it was my shamefaced self that tulli was getting so preciously petulant about.

Did I dare to challenge his GD credentials?? He is clearly the 'Man' and ought to be deferred to with the clear, but oh so subtle, promise that providing this mandate is adhered to we can go forth with his blessing to enjoy whatever our errant ears delude us as being em? - enjoyable.

He reminded me somewhat of a (pending tullist's ruling) funny little mantra that my Grandmother taught me to recite to myself when confronted with pretentious prissiness in all it's vainglorious guises:

'Do you insinuate that I should tolerate such diabolical insolence from a low down specimen of humanity like yourself? Your insinuations are too obnoxious to be appreciated, your brain is insufficiently developed to make it possible for me to converse with you any longer.. So bu**er off.

(It sounds better than it reads)

Silliness aside, I stand in abject correction and, since seeing the error of my ways, would wish to assure tulli that I have cast out the travesty of recorded nonsense that is Aoxomoxa (I can barely bring myself to utter it's name) from my collection and duly informed all members of my family that anybody daring to whisper it's name in the future will be force fed 'Aqualung' twice a night for a month (note subtle ingratiation) - that should do it.

Further silliness aside tulli old boy, get over yourself, take a deep breath and read your last post.. It is irrelevant whether you spent a week-end cavorting in a tub full of orange juice (although that is doubtful) with the entire GD family - I think you missed the point

nothing short of beautiful david, gives me a restoration of balance, probably temporary due to forboding extraneous factors. where i a christian man that is a sentiment the best of that thinking would embrace, as far as that goes its the other parts that give me pause.

the only point i missed was my own assessment of aoxomoxoa and i do not need u to tell me what is or is not worthwhile in the dead canon, that u have your own opinion i could not be happier about, but that u paint it in a fashion as if i were guilty of so horribly misleading people new to this is something u should keep to yourself. watch it with the language btw, bugger summa dis.

If that was you accepting an apology I'd hate to see what you come up with when challenged -

sorry tulli

PS: 'watch my language'? silly boy

Anyway, I think that that is enough now.

I suggest that you run back to your mummy and I run back to mine and we both try to play a little nicer in the future -

i would have to run into the next world for my "mummy" if u still have yours make sure to love her like there is no tomorrow, glad that i did. i will try to meet your exacting standards from this point on. and yes son, watch your language.

Behave you **** - I know you are a tull fan but must that presuppose your being such a total twit

looks like the board watched your language for u, point your bile elsewhere Mikey.

Now now gentlemen.

The next person to post personal abuse is banned.  >:(

Raymond, as the instigator of this thread, nobody's followed it closer than me, and as far as I'm concerned nobody showed you any disrepect before you wrote that!  We were just sharing our opinions.  After all it doesn't matter if you're married to a member of the Dead, or a visitor from Mars, if you like an album, you like an album.  And that's even if the band who created it don't!

I think you got your nose out of joint for no good reason here.  Except that now you and Mike really have fallen out.  Shame!   :(

Jules

I unreservedly apologise for allowing myself to engage in what, at best, has been an inappropriate use of this board.

I ought to have been more mindful of the public nature of any comments, rebukes etc that I posted and that allowing myself to 'engage' was not only contrary to the spirit that informs this site but, more significantly, a disservice to Jules's original question; I hope it doesn't hinder his journey into a canon of music that, perhaps, despite the inability of some of it's fans (I speak for both Robert and myself) to engage in reasoned debate on the subject - remains one of the more interesting and gratifying side roads of contemporary music.

As for Robert and I, we shall agree to differ with no life changing loss to either one of us.

'What's so funny about peace, love & understanding'

No way!  I'm now officially a fan.   ;D

Jules

Now, does anybody want to ask about 'Mighty Baby'?

Calling him Raymond might help.   ;)

Jules

seen em, didnt particularly think they were at all memorable, and then they went and half ruined linda thompson's life

Yikes!! It was a joke

Huh? What's that all about then?

They were part of the Sufi community that Richard and Linda joined.

Jules

nobody jokes on talkawhile ::)

Well you never have Jim !

From careful reading between the lines, Raymond might be in a difficult place right now. If possible, he may well need friends, not detractors.

IN the meantimes,

Amen to that.

Jules

Colin would soon put a stop to that............ ::)  It must be against some rule or other.

OK, in some form or other the following have now been aquired and listened to:- The Golden Road; So Many Roads; Three From The Vault.

I've also got Download Series Vol 3 in FLAC form awaiting my lazy ass to transfer onto CDRs.

Next up for purchase will be Ladies & Gentlemen, The Grateful Dead.

Also on the shopping list is Steppin' Out With The Grateful Dead.

Another one I fancy is Rockin' The Rhein.  However this no longer comes with the ltd bonus disc.  If anyone knows where I might land a copy of this with the bonus disc, please let me know.

The same bonus disc issue will delay me getting a couple of the Road Trips series.  Namely Vol 1 No.3 and Vol 3  No.2.  Again, any clues to how to land these with bonus discs intact, please let me know.

And then it's Dick's Picks Volumes 35 and 30.  And Download Series Vol 10.

And that's just 1971 and 1972.  How do you professional Deadheads keep up?!?!   :o

Jules

The bonus discs tend to be in pretty limited numbers and tend to sell out pretty quickly (as they are generally only sold through Deadnet, although some suppliers like Spin will get in copies as well).  They often sell at quite a premium on eBay.

One doesn't need to restate the obvious by saying that as dodgy downloads (inc as FLACs), they are available all over the place of course....

How do you professional Deadheads keep up?!?!   :o

That's easy, you take a deep breath, accept the fact that you are always going to be broke and wallow in denial :)

'Going to hell in a bucket but at least I'm enjoying the ride'

Failing that  - Steal

I know guys who never leave their homes.  All they do is download shows....or at least it seems that way.  Scary!  Every time I visit one of them, they load me down - I've got piles and piles of stuff that I've never listened to!  Sometimes I wonder if I ever will.  

I guess we've come a long way from the days of drawing pathetic Steal Your Face renderings on those Maxell UD-XL II S 90 tape covers, eh?  ;)    

 Sorry if this has already been posted - but at least there are some nice photo's here and there for fans of G.D alumni...

    http://www.furthur.net/

Talking of which...Phil's Birthday show looks sweet.  Downloading now!  (20.10 - 02.00 - that's called getting value for your buck!)

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=533496

Furthur & Friends
Phil Lesh's 70th Birthday Bash
Friday, March 12, 2010
Bill Graham Civic Auditorium
San Francisco, CA
A Benefit Concert for the Unbroken Chain Foundation
Proceeds to support Haitian Earthquake Relief

Source: Nakamichi 300 shotguns > Lunatec V3 > Sound Devices 744T

Transfer: 744T > Adobe Audition 1.5 > 24/88.2 to 16/44 > CDWave FLAC

Recorded by Pete Gilmore, Monkey Tunes
Transferred by Dawne and Pete Gilmore

Set 1 (8:10pm – 9:20pm)

Acoustic:
Phil Lesh (on Ritter bass)
Bob Weir
John Kadlecik
Jeff Chimenti
Jay Lane
Sunshine Becker
Zoe Ellis
Steve Molitz
Jackie Greene
Chris Robinson

01 Ripple (BW)
02 Lazy River Road (JK)
03 Peggy-O (CR)
04 Two Souls in Communion (CR)
05 Brokedown Palace (JG)
06 A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall (BW)
07 They Love Each Other (CR)
08 Mountains of the Moon (PL)
09 Attics of My Life (All)

Set 2: (10:05pm – 11:40pm)

Phil Lesh (on Modulus bass)
Bob Weir
John Kadlecik
Jeff Chimenti
Joe Russo
Jay Lane
Sunshine Becker
Zoe Ellis
Jackie Greene
Chris Robinson

01 Scarlet Begonias (JG)
02 Minglewood Blues (BW)
03 Easy Wind (CR) >
04 New Speedway Boogie (JG)
05 Viola Lee Blues V1 (All) >
06 High Time (CR)
07 Caution Jam > Viola Lee Blues V2 (All) >
08 Hard To Handle (CR) > Viola Lee Blues V3 (All) >
09 Like A Rolling Stone (CR) >
10 Sugaree (CR)

Set 3: (12:10am – 2:00am)
Phil Lesh (on Modulus bass)
Bob Weir
John Kadlecik
Jeff Chimenti
Joe Russo
Sunshine Becker
Zoe Ellis
John Molo
Steve Molitz
Jackie Greene
Chris Robinson

01 Not Fade Away Jam (w/Parade of floats) >
02 Happy Birthday, Dear Phil! (w/Balloon drop) > Not Fade Away Jam
03 Playing in the Band (BW) > Jam >
04 St. Stephen (All) >
05 The Other One (BW) >
06 Elevator (SM lead jam) >
07 Unbroken Chain (PL)
08 Comes a Time (CR) >
09 Cream Puff War (CR) (w/two Go-Go dancers on stage) >
10 Franklin's Tower (PL, JG)
11 Donor Rap & Phil thanks the audience and band
12 Johnny B. Goode (BW)

Good pics on furthur...Phil looks great, and that bass is crazy; noticed "I miss Jerry" on the amp, a defining reality for them all I would hazard...shall go listen to Aoxomoxoa, it's the one!

Now, now, don't start that one up all over again!   ::)

Jules

Yeah, thats my insidious, well, its spelled something like that, doing. My very public apologies to Mike and Cocker in particular, spoken from the mouth of a personal hell, in which I still firmly occupy my seat. But its all a bit of a larf, its only life after all, damn demanding flesh. My perception of Aoxomoxoa is merely in reference to their pre 70 output, it is the last one I would reach for, but not without its noted charms, at least 4 that are touchstones of a sort, I just feel to a one they were fleshed out better in live performance.
Quite envious of friends who were able to make it up to Angels Camp this weekend way up in the Sierras, I still remember the bewildered naked young man being taken away by authorities there in 87 with that look of what have I done wrong officer look on his face. Or the local couple who came home to find a couple Deadheads shaw nuff doin it in their pleasant bed. Or a pissed off Bill Graham riding around on his motorcycle and trying to dispatch order. Or being trapped amongst roughly 1000 "spinners" in the midst of their unseemly ritual ;)and wondering if I was having a heart attack as my medicine took hold. Or the skydivers coming down with the skull and lightning bolt flag at the beginning of the show. Carlos joinin in on a bunch of old chestnuts like Good Morning Little Schoolgirl and positively playing with a fire that had not been evident with that edition of Santana earlier, and Jerry flashing the old cheshire cat at him. Ahh, Deadheads, some of the funniest stuff I have ever witnessed.
And this weekend had electric HotTuna? Sure would like to see Jorma and Jack as a duo at Cropredy, should be effective.

Whilst I'd love to see Tuna at Cropredy, I (sadly) think the acoustic version of the band (let alone the duo) would get lost in the field rather....  You need to hear Jack's bass (acoustic or otherwise) bouncing off enclosed walls  :)

Now that you mention that could be true, the most effective times I have seen Tuna, particularly as a duo, was indoors. I have seen them outdoors at a couple earlier Furthur fests and sure it was great, but not the very best, some of those Jack Jorma shows indoors were kind of close to sacred. Everyone seen this little chestnut from that Airplane tour of 89? Although the set lists were good, opening with Its No Secret I think into Crown of Creation the shows were so so, but Jack and Jorma in the middle of the show were just the ticket as I believe this little You Tube shows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv-AB_8Hmg0

 Thankyou Raymond  :)

Indeed a splendid few minutes. Thanks Raymond.

I seem to remember HT being more than a bit good at the Stones Knebworth show in the mid 70s. In fact they were the band I enjoyed most that day.  :)

And on the Dead front, I've just ordered copies of Ladies & Gentlemen, and Steppin' Out.  Happy days!   :D

Jules

I make Raymond and David hit the nail on the head regarding (Acoustic) Hot Tuna performing at a large festival but a smaller one (SoL?) with a good 'country fair' vibe could be nice - Now that's what I call 'England's dreaming'

If you can book Hot Tuna for SOL 2011, then there'll be 300 very happy hippies in a field in Kent next July  ;D

Nice clip of the '89 shows...nice to think something good came of that reunion 'cos the album is horrible....

I wish

Oops...controversy? Well, my declaration of love for that record isn't connected to any previous dance of the humble opinions...I've loved The Dead all my life, and as they become more idea than reality to me, that one's turned out to be the record that best triggers the feeling, with 'Wake' a close second.

Good call. The Europe '72 shows occurred literally days before my Damascene conversion. Curses. In fact it was the Luxemburg show on the radio that did it for me.

However, the next tour in the UK in Sept '74, was rather good & some of the Ally Pally stuff appears on DP7, but in a chopped up fashion.

Oh dear. Have just ordered this. Back at a sensible price.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beyond-Description-1973-1990-Grateful-Dead/dp/B0002NUTS8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1269961013&sr=1-2

That'll be the Easter break spoken for then!  ;D

Heh heh heh.  Been listening to that all week, Gub.  It's a rockier road that the first one, but heck, it's a fun way to blow seventy quid.   ;)

Jules

I'm familiar with bits and pieces of it already, particularly the later stuff but I am really looking forward to hearing Reckoning & Dead Set. Also Go To Heaven, just because it is so controversial!

You should love the first two you mention.  Don't hold your breath for Go To Heaven.  One man's 'controversial' is this man's 'utter turkey'.   ;)

Jules

Wasn't sure whether to post this in "Listening to" or "Bargain bin" but put it here so that anyone getting tired of Dead references can easily ignore it.

"Postcards Of The Hanging - The Grateful Dead Perform The Songs Of Bob Dylan" & "To Terrapin - Hartford '77" (That's Connecticut, not Hertfordshire, btw).

Both cracking discs, both available at Amazon for very modest outlay. Highly recommended.

"Postcards" is £4.99 & may have the 2 track bonus disc, but info is contradictory. Some excellent performances of some great Bob songs, from various (mostly 1980s) dates, without too much interference of the man himself (Ah, just noticed its on Amazon Marketplace & therefore second hand)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Postcards-Hanging-Grateful-Perform-Songs/dp/B00006314F/ref=dp_return_1?ie=UTF8&n=229816&s=music

"To Terrapin" is the last night of the Spring '77 tour, which ranks among a lot of peoples' top tours producing the "Betty Board" tapes. Full show, 3 discs, £5.99. Mmm, scrummy. :)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Terrapin-Live-Hartford-May-1977/dp/B001TW2S9E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1270120150&sr=1-1

It's here...!  :)

I've been getting lost in the two 4-CD sets, Ladies & Gentlemen and Steppin' Out.

Interesting to compare the two.  Whilst both are from the era I love best, the former from '71, the latter from '72, there's a marked difference.  The '71 set is ragged and sounds like a warts 'n' all document.  It's very good, but you areleft in no doubt that these are archival live recordings.  Steppin' Out however raises the stakes.  Song after song is nailed beautifully, and the jams segue into other songs in remarkable, clever ways that make you applaud or laugh.  It's heroic.  An absolutely essential set.

Jules

Here's quite an interesting little article on the band.  Strange, but interesting.

http://www.jambands.com/news/2010/04/19/bob-lefsetz-on-the-grateful-dead

Where next?  Here.  http://www.furthurfestival.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60

Further are playing Working man's Dead, American Beauty, Anthem, Aoxomoxoa, Terrapin & Blues for Allah in their entirity.  Plus Electric Hot Tuna and loads of other good stuff.

Cash donations gratefully accepted  ;D

Sigh..............

A copy of Road Trips vol 1 no. 3 (Summer '71) on its way to me.  Complete with bonus disc.  Cost me an arm and a leg on eBay, but I was gritty in my determination to have this set.

Will be hunting a copy of Road Trips vol 3 no. 2 next (Texas '71).

I think the real problem is going to be finding a copy Rockin' The Rhein complete with its original bonus disc.  That may take some time......

Jules

This is a goodie...cheap as chips too...

http://hmv.com/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=97;-1;-1;-1;-1&sku=955807

The GD featured as one of author's  Faye Weldon's "Desert Island Discs" (BBC Rdio4)favourite tracks last Sunday...

Aye...Touch of Grey, I believe (although I missed it)...

Just got my first ever Dick's Picks through the post.  Volume 35.  The high volume number fills me with a certain sense of dread.  Being a newbie Deadhead, you feel like there's such a mountain to climb.  I'll just have to try and remember to enjoy the climb and not look up, or down, too often!   ;)

Jules

Indeed it was. She also mentioned hanging out on stage with them, but didn't explain the circumstances.

Playing Road Trips vol 1 number 3 last night - most entertaining version of Lovelight I've yet to hear.  Lots of dynamics, lots of fun.  Really worth checking out.  It's on the bonus disc.

Some versions of this are a slog for me to get through, but this one is marked for repeat listens.

Jules

This is a new one on me...fabulous funky version of Fire with Jerry and Carlos... It really takes off in places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmN0mFHDH2w

I've probably said it before but have you looked at the Dead stuff on Archive.org, its free and legal. Theres also some Furthur.

I've tried...I've tried...but he's a stubborn old chap.  We need to get him off-piste soon, though.....

I'm a CD collector, fellas.  I tend to only investigate the other stuff after I've bought the hard plastic things.  I like the way they look on the shelves.  Shiny things.  [drool]

Jules

You can stream from the site too, and listen whilst your doodling on here. ;D

Not when you work in a library, Nick!   ;D

Jules

But The Archive is a library! ;D

Oh to work in that kind of library!!   :P

Jules

Superb footage of the Dead playing a beautiful rendition of Terrapin Station from 1977:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7TiqLGRZKU

Jerry is so bright and alert - positively radiant.  Even Donna hits the right notes, and looks lovely.  But it's Jerry who steals the show.

Jules

Some very very understated playing from Jerry in the first half and then him looking more animated than ever in the last third.  Know the recording but never seen the footage before.  Very nice....

He does look beautifully animated, doesn't he?  God love him.

Jules

i also watched the terrapin station video from anaheim in 87 with Brent
what a band, effin awasome

Fab clip, that Spring '77 tour is one of my favourites. thanks for posting. Curious vocal effect, sounds like multi-tracking. Not come across that before with the Dead. Rest of the show is available here:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd77-04-27.sbd.samaritano.20331.sbefail.shnf

but seemingly, only for streaming not downloading, alas (unless anyone knows any different.  :))

  :D  What absolutely wonderful, poetic music! Never heard it before. Is the studio version of that song as good? And if so, is the rest of the album up to that standard? Please  [;-)

Like most of their studio music, the album is flawed but beautiful....a bit like Jerry himself.  Go investigate...you won't regret it.

The studio version of Terrapin Station is superb.  It also has some later sections that the Dead didn't play live.  Well worth having.  One of my absolute faves.

The rest of the Terrapin Station album is decidedly patchy.  Bob Weir's Estimated Prophet is pretty good.  The rest of side 1 is so-so.  The title track is by far and away the best thing on there.  But it could be worth it for that alone.  Or alternatively, maybe just download the title track.

Jules

 Thanks guys! I notice there's a remastered and expanded version available - more impressively, a 3cd live set 'To Terrapin' for under six quid!  :o

...as recommended by David on these very pages.

And yes, with all Dead CDs, get the expanded versions.  Bonus tracks aplenty.

Jules

Talking of "Terrapin", there is a really interesting extended acoustic version of the full suit (as opposed to the truncated version, as released) on a Robert Hunter solo waxing called "Jack O'Roses" from 1980. I only have it on cassette & currently can't even find that, so I'm not sure how it matches up lyrically to the "full" version published in the book "Box Of Rain" As with lots of Hunter lyrics, it's the imagery, rather than its meaning, that is its glory. A full band version of the whole suit without the pesky choir & orchestra would have been great, but its first live outing at San Bernadino in Feb '77 is well worth checking out.  :)

I'd like to hear Hunter's version.  I believe there are some lyric differences between the version on the album and the version in his book.

I like the choir and orchestra myself.  I know they're not typically Dead-like, but they add dynamics to that end section and I find it enjoyable.

Is San Bernadino the only time they navigated the end sections live?  I heard they messed up one time and then abadoned the latter sections.

Jules

No, San Bernadino was played pretty much as the standard live version, if memory serves. Another cassette languishing in the bowels of our cellar. Looks like an exhumation weekend is due. You're quite correct, but I wasn't aware, apparently on 18th March '77, at the Winterland, they did give an extended version a go, up to "At A Siding", but as you say, it wasn't repeated. Must check that one out.  :)

I have a soft spot for Martyn Ford through his work with Barclay James Harvest, before they came over all European, but it just doesn't work on "Terrapin", for my money.

RH and Larry Klein... 27 May 78

It doesn't really work, but is fascinating nevertheless...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De67KvTIhkE

In a bid to justify my ownership of a Blu ray player, or at least have something to play on it, I have this morning ordered the Woodstock 40th Anniversary Directors Cut and am delighted to find that it includes amongst its extras a 35 minute long performance by the Grateful Dead of Turn On Your Love Light. I'm looking forward to immersing myself in that.

As for Terrapin Station, that suite is the high watermark of their studio output for my money. It is so beautiful. I love it. Actually I quite like the whole album. I am yet to hear a live version though. Perhaps I should invest in the aforementioned To Terrapin set.

Perversely, I think my next port of call is going to be the collection of Dylan covers. Got to be better than the live album actually recorded with him!

And people think Garcia has a poor singing voice!   ;)

Jules

Have a shufti at the version I posted a link for, Gub.  It's bloody marvelous!

I think I may agree with your thoughts regarding the song's status.  It is indeed mighty.

Jules

You've not heard Phil and Friends, have you?   ;D

Will do. When I get home, if I remember. No video streaming facilities here. Probably just as well!  ;D

Fascinating indeed. Oh, what might have been,it could have ended up as a full blown rock opera  ;). Thanks for posting, David. RH sounds like Jake Thackray!

Really?  Because Phil had a lovely, if uncertain, singing voice back in the 70s.  Kind of like Gene Clark with more questionable pitch.  I wish Phil had sung more than he did.

Jules

I really wish the Dead had tackled the whole thing.  I believe Hunter feels the same way.

Jules

Aye, all true.  But something happened (I think we can guess what) and now he sounds, well, 'challenging'.  I can live with it (as the music is so bloody good - depending on who he's playing with)...but I know a hell of a lot of people that can't!  Believe me, in relative terms, he makes Hunter sound like Placido.  (And in truth, I've heard some Hunter live stuff where his voice sounds just exactly right...it's just that particular song isn't one of them!)....

[Jules scratches the side of his nose and sniffs]

Haven't got a clue what you mean, here.   ;)

Jules

My copy of Road Trips vol 3, number 3 has arrived and it's an absolute stormer!  No Pig, no Donna, just Jerry, Bob, Phil, Bill and Keith as a lean, mean, fighting machine.  They're nailing everything.  The excitement level is high.  Why has 1971 not got a better reputation among Deadheads?  This show rules.

Jules

I'm not sure it hasn't.  Its probably only its proximity to 1972 that makes it look like that in retrospect.  

I have to say, despite being as guilty of it as any Deadhead, that the preoccupation with years is preposterous.  As though the band woke up one 1 Jan and decided they were going to be different and each year was going to be a cohesive whole...it is, talking about it like that, just insane  :)

Well yes, quite.  Personnel changes are far more noticeable.

Jules

One thing that strikes me on the Road Trips Austin show is just how assured the vocals are.  On some shows Jerry sounds scared of either the microphone or of opening his throat, but here he's really singing with confidence.

Jules

He was still only 29.  At that age, the body can cope a lot better with what we shove into it.  I'm sure there's a psychological aspect involved as well, but Jerry never treated his physical self very kindly, did he?

Yes, quite so, but even on other shows from the same period he can sometimes sound mic-shy.

I don't know much about his story other than what I've read online.  What's your recommendation for a good Jerry/Dead biography?  One that concentrates on the music as much as the characters would be preferable.

Jules

Still don't think there's been an altogether satisfying biog of the band or Jerry (most are utter hogwash) - although imho probably the best is Dennis McNally's "A Long Strange Trip"...although that too is more character driven than music driven.  

Thanks.  Yeah, I was already thinking I'd start with that one.

Jules

Anyone into Seastones?

Yes, I agree. Most are really rubbish & don't do the subject justice. Avoid Rock Scully's "Living With The Dead", unless you want a pretty nasty blow by blow account of what & how much was consumed. Sandy Troy's "Captain Trips" Garcia biography is OK, if a bit lightweight. Steve Parish's "Home Before Daylight", likewise. Two early books are worth checking out if you come across them at modest prices: Hank Harrison's "The Dead" first published in the early 70s & expanded in 1980 & Blair Jackson's "The Music Never Stopped", from 1983. As David said, the definitive account has yet to be written. An interesting read, if at something of a tangent, is "Bill Graham Presents" by, er, Bill Graham.

Regarding years, I think it's used just as a shorthand to divide an enormous canon of work into more manageable bites. Certainly, in my mind, I have impressions & feelings for different periods that can be roughly expressed in terms of year. I don't think it's used in any prescriptive sense, just as a sort of map.

I also agree with Jules that RT Vol.3, No.2 (Austin) is a real cracker, they sound like they're really having fun. Still deciding whether to replace my aged informal copy by splashing 40 dollars on the new Philadelphia '89 DVD/ CD.

"Seastones"? Heard it once in about 1975. I believe it was reissued fairly recently in an expanded form, but I've not heard it. Quite interesting live, as at Ally Pally in '74.

Hank Harrison's (aka Courtney Love's Dad) book is certainly worth checking out for giving a feel of how things were around the band, but I'm not entirely sure its worth reading as a 'true' historical record!

Some of the best writing about the band I've come across was in Blair Jackson's awesome The Golden Road magazine.  I had a complete set of them and ending up selling them when skint.  They go for silly money now...  Sigh...!

Good point, well made.

Jules

Ah. Truth & history. Now there's a subject. Discuss, or rather, don't! ;D

Its certainly a good one!  I rather contradict myself above when I say that in reality, I stick to the 'there are many truths' maxim.  I guess what I meant is Harrison's book is not very grounded in factual reality, or if it, its just his and bears little relation to any other telling of the GD story I've read....  Oh, I'm probably just making this worse, so I'll quit now  ;) :)

I enjoyed the Grateful Dead Reader, the shorter pieces made it more palatable as writers did not get focused on the drug use,

http://www.amazon.com/Grateful-Reader-Readers-American-Musicians/dp/0195147065

Thanks for the tip, though I do actually want to know about the drug use.  I mean, with the Dead, it is relevant!

Jules

It's all their I think there is a great short story about Dead fans in there as well and their relationship to the band the drugs and the life style, I remember that being the most powerful pieces.

One of the problems with the Dead seems to be have been the number of people who went along for the ride and are now at a point when they need a retirement plan and the story is all they have and they feel they need to spice it up a little. Phil Lesh's book was interesting as well.

Signed copies are available from your friendly dealer  ;D

Yep - that is a good read...and another 'spot on' for the GD Reader...some good stuff in there too.

I did laugh at the sentence "One of the problems with the Dead seems to be have been the number of people who went along for the ride".  So, so true...and most of them were on the payroll too, and had a vote equal to that of the band members in many regards which perpetuated the band doing ridiculous numbers of dates, particularly in the last 10 years, when Jerry's (and at times, several other band members) heart(s) wasn't in it leading to him turning to drugs as a means of relief and ultimately leading to his death.  The GD was a machine that ate itself.  Very weird.

I've not come across the "Reader" & have yet to catch up with PL's autobiog, so thanks for the pointers. For my money, the one essential tome for any Deadhead is "Deadbase". Encyclopaedic range of info + fascinating selection of concert reviews by those who were there (as opposed to journalists), exhaustive set lists, times items played & in what sequence (for those snatches of shows without labels), song info, plus Weir & Garcia bases in some editions, alls sorts of useless info & everything a dedicated trainspotter Deadhead would want to know. Alas, later editions (up to DB XI) are going for ludicrous amounts on Amazon.

They are nice to have but all the info is online...

The Deadhead's Taping Compendiums Vols I - III are good, but their price has now sky-rocketed and the Addendum (effectively Vol IV) is 300 dollars or so these days.  

Oh, books I have sold and regreted...the list is endless!

I'm trying to hunt down a copy of Dick's Picks Volume 28.  Recordings from February 1973.  Deadnet is sold out, Spin CDs are sold out, Amazon has none, and two copies sold on eBay this past fortnight for silly prices.  Any other suggestions for places to try?

Jules

Holy Moses...who's got £105 to spend on a 4 CD set these days?  Plenty of people apparently...  Crazyness.  

Don't know what to suggest apart from the obvious, I'm afraid.

I know!  I'd been watching it in 'my eBay' and thinking to myself "oh, I'm snagging that one at the last minute!".  After a couple of days of it being listed even the early bidders had driven it up to about £45 - which was past the limit I'd set myself.  I was deeply shocked when it topped a ton.

Some Dick's Picks seem to be much rarer than others.  Did they make noticeably smaller batches of some volumes I wonder......?

Still, I really fancy Volume 28.  I will not give up easily!  (And compared to finding an original copy of the Rockin' The Rhein bonus disc, it'll be a piece of p!ss.)

Jules

Ah, the thrill of the chase!  :)

Heh heh.  Yeah, something like that.  Though I would prefer it if some of the odds weren't quite so slim.

Jules

 I don't know if this will interest anyone here or not, it sounds from the write-up that the filming might be a little unprofessional:

 http://spaceritual.net/tractor/gdead.htm

 The Grateful dead in England in 1970  :)

Just converted Download Series Vol. 10: Paramount Northwest Theatre, Seattle, WA, 7/21/72 from FLAC to wav, so I've been listening to it today.  A storming show, with such a lovely version of He's Gone that I said "that as lovely" out loud after it had finished........and there was nobody else in the room.   :-[

Jules

Erm? What's the point in conversion? FLAC is a lossless format, as is WAV, so what do you gain?

FLAC recorded CDs won't play on my system. So, unless I only want to hear stuff on the PC, I have to transfer it to WAV. I recognise I'm a techno-numpty, but if someone could put me right on this I'd be grateful.

Now listening to a rather fine, if frenetic recording from Fillmore West 29th Nov '66. Go faster! :)

Quite right.  You can't burn an audio CD from FLAC (you can burn a CD with FLAC files on it, but that's a different matter).  So, you either listen to the FLAC files on your PC (with something like Foobar2000) or, if you want to burn a CD that plays on an, er, CD player, your change them to Wav files and burns your CD....

There are several programs that can burn FLAC files to audio CDs, including the pretty widely used Nero and the freeware Burrrn (http://www.burrrn.net/?page_id=4).

Maybe I'm misinterpreting you...I know you can burn FLACs onto a disc, do it all the time, but only as storage.  They still won't play in any CD player....that was the point I was making anyway.

What I mean is, there are programs that allow you to burn FLAC files to audio CDs that will play in a standard CD player, just like a CD burnt with WAV files will. They factor the decompression of the FLAC file in at burn time so you don't need to convert the file beforehand.

Gentlemen

Can we take the FLAC discusion to the help desk please.

Thanks,

Paul

That sounds cool.  Would have saved me some considerable time with the '72 Dead stuff.

Will check the new thread if it does indeed move home....

Jules

I don't think it will make it as far as a separate thread Jules but I did already link to some software for the job:



Cheers,
Mike

Thanks, Mike, I'll look into it.

Jules

I just snagged a DP28 on eBay.  £28 plus £1 p+p.  Result!   :)

Jules

Its all relative I suppose, but, yes, definitely a result...you disc fetishist you....  ;D

Heh heh heh heh.

The eBayers who forked out over £100 would be feeling pretty silly right now.....if they even cared.....or knew the value of a dollar/pound.

Jules

I had a change of heart and mind and ordered a copy of Beyond Description from Base on Friday.  It's here already!   :)

Did anyone get in quick and score the bonus disc for this set?

Jules

Unfortunately not, you had to order direct and pre release.
You can get all but the rehearsal track from the archive though. ;D

What was the bonus disc then?

BD definitely worth it for Reckoning, Dead Set, Mars Hotel & much of Wake Of the Flood, Terrapin Station & In The Dark. A few other gems dotted here and there too. I can't understand why Without A Net was not included though. It leaves one official release outside of the two boxed sets. A strange decision.

Just Google Beyond Description Bonus Disc and you'll get a tracklisting.

You're forgetting Steal Your Face - also left out.

Bonus disc contents:-

Weather Report Suite (live 10/17/74)
Blues For Allah > Stronger Than Dirt Or Milkin' The Turkey > Drums > Stronger Than Dirt Or Milkin' The Turkey > Blues For Allah (live 3/23/75)
Showboat (8/12/75 rehearsal)
Shakedown Street (live 8/13/79)
Far From Me (live 8/31/80)
Estimated Prophet (live 10/10/80)

Jules

I'd pretty much agree with that, but with stronger emphasis on Wake Of The Flood which I've now grown to love.

Jules

Oh yes. I'd entirely forgotten that! And I don't have a copy. Hmmm. How essential is that I wonder?



Edit: Expunged from the canon it would seem, judging by the Amazon prices! How odd for an official release.

Steal Your Face?  You can pick it up cheaper.  It's a double, remember (even if it is a short double).

I've heard it and it's....it's OK.  The vocals are a bit dodgy in terms of recording quality.  They sound harsh.  But the performances are OK.  All songs, no jamming.  The hardcore Deadheads didn't like that so much, so I've read.

It's kind of been replaced by The Grateful Dead Movie Soundtrack.  Same set of shows.

Jules

The new Road Trips looks nice.  Yum yum

http://www.dead.net/road-trips/road-trips-vol-3-no-3

Holy cow!  I'm having some of that!

Jules

Where do you get your Road Trips from, folks?  Direct from the States, or from Spin CDs, or elsewhere?

Jules

Theoretically cheaper from the US, but can be stung by postage and customs fees....and dead.net are a bit iffy on the cutomer services front imho... I tend to buy from Spin but sometimes their prices are sometimes silly too..  Not sure of other alternatives that can guarantee the bonus discs....

Yes I've been caught out by customs charges before now.  I think it's Spin for me.

Jules

My Dick's Picks 28 arrived and so I started listening last night.  I must say it's a stormer so far - spirited and tuneful singing from the chaps, and Jerry is playing his socks off on lead.

Going to try and preorder the new Road Trips from Spin today if they're doing preorders already.

Jules

They are indeed.  Job done.   :)

Jules

Now I could check but as you're here...how much in total, Jules?

I think he said £29.99 including postage.  It's a 4 disc job this time remember, so not so bad.

Jules

Thanks!  *hunts around in wallet*

Btw, seen the Dead net footy shirts?

http://store.dead.net/t-shirts/brazil-soccer-t-shirt

Dear oh dear - they certainly know how to adapt those logos and designs don't they?

It's a niche market though.  Footie and the Dead.  At the same time.   :o

Jules

Looks like a great package.

Just checked Deadnet & with postage to the UK it works out about £24. Customs charges only kick in on items above £18 (postages costs don't count). Over the donkey's years I've used them, I've had two problems with orders. Both were resolved promptly & without quibble. So, speak as you find. Even with foreign transaction fees, it still works out marginally cheaper.

Awaiting my chum's return from the US with a copy the Philadelphia CD/DVD set, avoiding the somewhat inflated postal charges.

I didn't know that.  I will file that nugget of info away somewhere for future reference.  Thanks, Ian.

Jules

Did we not raise the limit from £18 to about £100 a year or two back?

Well, yes & no, according to HMRC:

No excise duty (on cds, anyway). No Customs duty under £120. Import VAT duty kicks in on items over £18. I thought there were plans afoot to increase this amount, but can't recall details & it was some time ago. Anyway, link for details below.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/post/buying.htm#1

Just to add to this, I've played the 3rd disc (the first part of the Salt Lake City show) through twice now and I declare it to be the most consistently superb disc of live Dead I've heard so far.  They nail everything.  The singing is first rate, even the harmonies (yes, Donna included).  And another sublime version of He's Gone.  Marvelous.

Jules

I've got a "Skull & Roses" cycling jersey - proper job, long length zip, 3 back pockets.  Didn't get it from dead.net, though... a cycling specialist on t'interweb.  Seenm a few DSOTM jerseys around, no other Dead ones.  I'd love a "Crimson King" (the face...) one!

It may get an(other) outing on Sunday - the Sue Ryder (Leckhampton) charity ride.

Just bagged a second hand copy of Dick's Picks Volume 24 (a 1974 show with the "Wall Of Sound") on the Amazon Marketplace for £4.22 including p+p.

Reviewers seem to think it's not such a hot show, but at that price, how could I resist?

Jules

Road Trips Volume 3 Number 3 (Fillmore East May 1970) was waiting on the doormat when I got home from work on Friday.  Which was nice.  And so far, so very good.   :)

Jules

It is a good price.......but not a very good show, I'm afraid.  I've always thought that they sort of ambushed themselves here.  While the "Wall" would later inspire them to reach their most ethereal peak, I believe it must have been a real bug fest that evening...and distracting.  EXAMPLE: Remember, the first time trying to use a delay live?  For me, it wasn't too purty!  :)

 

Well it arrived yesterday, so I played it, and.....well, I didn't think it was too shabby at all.  It started off sounding unbalanced but improved quickly, though the one noticeable downside is that Jerry sounds quite restreained throughout.  I take it that's why it doesn't enjoy a decent reputation as a show.  Though a ferocious and rocking version of Deal stood out as an exception.  Weir on good form.  As is Keith who takes his turn to shine whilst Jerry takes something of a back seat.  But I enjoyed it.  Certainly didn't strike me as any less enjoyable than the Winterland 1973 shows, which have a largely similar setlist.

Jules

Just scooped up Jerry Garcia's 3rd 'solo' album Reflections, half of which features the Dead mid way between Blues For Allah and Terrapin Station.

Jules

Great stuff. I'm particularly fond of this & his first solo album. Hope you got the Rhino version as the previous release, on Line, suffers from pretty poor sound. Better yet, the later issue has bonus tracks. Best of all is the "All Good Things" box set with all 5 solo discs + bonus tracks & a 6th outtakes disc. Fab.

If you're on a Jerry jag & you haven't already, I can recommend the "Live at Keystone" series. (Keystones 1 & 2 + Encores") with Merle Saunders, recorded in '73(?), each is available separately & a delight from start to finish.  :)

I'd have to be reminded what Jerry band outings in any year are not well worthwhile. I actually most strongly recommend his outings from 89 on, frequently more satisfying than the Dead were in those years, and I am someone who has a much kinder assessment of the Dead in their final years than many. The magic did not happen as often but it still was not an infrequent visitor. Highly recommend an acoustic one I saw at Marin Civic in early 86, a recent release in that series I think they call Just Jerry. Hey Now!

Yep.  Frequently and consistently more satisfying than the Dead in later years....

I got the version with bonus tracks.  Same with the first album.  Of course now I wish I'd gone for the boxed set for that 6th disc!   :(

Jules

We are everywhere...  ;D

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1293649/Justin-Timberlake-reveals-love-Grateful-Dead-goes-jog-New-York.html

There is a chance that he just thinks its an attractive symbol but who knows. I feel certain that at the apex of their popularity 20 or 25 years ago I recall folks buying that symbol for similar reasons that, Americans at least, used to afix the STP oil sticker on their sports or other car. Anyway, he's the guy that used to be married to or boyfriend of Brittney Spears right? There have been other people who I was surprised, and frankly would prefer not to have known,were, if not Deadheads, people who have seen them, most unsettlingly, infamous American right wing pundit, writer, etc, Anne Coulter.

I think the best one was David Beckham wearing a Crass t-shirt a few years back!  I'm sure Justin hasn't a clue what he's wearing...he's probably berating his stylist as we speak.  But still, if it gets the Daily Mail talking about the Dead it can't be all bad.  Possibly.

And, sad as some of us might think it, there's no shortage of Deadheads on the Right of the political spectrum...that hippie 'libertarianism' for want of a better word was never a 'liberal' preserve....

Not quite as quick as spin, perhaps, but from source, RT Vol.3, No.3 ( Fillmore East, 15/05/70) arrived this morning. Two copies ordered which should, in theory have attracted VAT, but happily, whoever filled out the Customs declaration scrawled the price illegibly & no surcharge was applied. Result  :)

Good man yerself, Ian!

Jules

Careful, we have a HM Revenue & Customs employee around these parts, I think.

Can't we just bribe him.   ;)

Jules

Come & get me rozzers. You'll never take me alive  ;D

That's right - he ain't goin' dahhhn for this caper, you muppets!  Even if he is banged to rights.  My boy ain't doin' no stir.

Jules

From the band introductions on the new Road Trips:

Bill Graham: "From 710 Ashbury Street, Mr Jerry Garcia":

JG: "They'll never take me alive".

Thus proving definitively that space truly is deep  ;D

And the similarly delightful exchange between Jerry and the girl in the audience wanting to know where his beard has gone, to which he replies "I don't ask you about your beard!".  Wonderful.

Jules

OK - slightly off topic here, but... I spotted a remastered edition of the Dylan/Dead CD over the weekend for £3 (in RISE).

I've never actually heard this album, but I've read that it's truly awful - now, was it the sound quality of the original, or the recording quality, or the playing and/or singing that made/make it so bad? Is it worth £3?

It was a bit muddy, soundwise & perhaps not the happiest of performances, but for £3? Yes, just about, but manage your expectations. There are much better documents of the tour around & the rehearsals have some really nice moments.

OK, I've just stumbled upon this thread, had no idea it was going on for some reason.  I've been a Dead fan since 1969 - I was 12, into folk music, and heard Workingman's Dead, and was hooked.  (Probably about the same time I discovered Fairport.)  Saw them many times starting in 1975, and the last time was during the Dylan and The Dead tour, in Washington DC.  I believe it was a few days before Jerry went into the coma. So I'd like to put in my 2 cents.  It was a horrible show, and that Dylan and the Dead album captures it perfectly.

But while I'm here, I'd like to give you all my favorites list (in case there's someone still looking for recommendations for places to start), starting with what I consider their best album:
Europe '72 - The reason it's so good is that they re-recorded 90% of the vocals in the studio (sorry if this has been touched on here - I could read through all 20 or so pages).  They set up their instrument amps exactly like they had done on stage during that tour and piped through all their individual parts, and then sang over that.  So the harmonies are immeasurably better than they could ever actually pull off live. They had done similar live/studio combinations within a song earlier (Skull & Roses and Anthem of the Sun) but never as a plan of attack for a whole release.  It's everything I think they hoped they would sound like live.
And in no particular order, because it would change tomorrow:
Mars Hotel
American Beauty
Workingman's Dead
Skull & Roses
Wake of the Flood
Anthem of the Sun
Blues for Allah- they go to the brink of being a progressive jazz band, but it seems they decided against it

Of the myriad From The Vault and Dick's Picks and other later-on releases of live shows, may I heartily recommend the first one ("One From The Vault").  It was their first time back playing after an extended break (which they never did), debuting songs which would appear later on Blues for Allah.  It was a small venue, typical for that era (1975) and was an FM live broadcast at the time, so everyone had a bootleg for many years before they released the CD.

Finally, a must for any collection is Old & In The Way, maybe the best bluegrass album ever recorded, teaming up Garcia and his folkie buddies with Vassar Clements.  Great version of the Stones' Wild Horses.

OK I'm done.

I'm confused by this part - if they were recording vocals, why did they set up their amps?  And what does "piped through their individual parts" mean?  They re-recorded the instruments too?  Like I sai, I'm confused!   ???

Jules

As I understand it, the live recordings were done on a multi-track system.  Then in the studio each individual instrument track was played through its appropriate amplifier, without the vocals being played back.  They then sang the new vocals, with their vocal mikes picking up the ambient sounds of the amps in the same way that they would in a live setting, and these new vocal tracks replaced the original ones.  No headphones, no isolation, etc., just the ability to make things sound as if it was all done at once.  The main thing is that the instrumental tracks were indeed live, picking the cream, without considering how good or bad the original vocals may have been, of the versions of the songs played on that tour.  There were bootlegs back then of the original recordings (I presume they're still out there in download-land), and it's almost funny to hear the exact same notes being played, but with the usual iffy live vocals.  They never play the a song the same way twice, so it was pretty easy to notice.  There are places on the album where you can hear the difference - where no new vocals were done.

I think that they just wanted to get the same feel as singing live, as opposed to the rather sterile nature of the normal type of overdubbing.

By the way, the other reason I really like Europe '72, as well as American Beauty, Skull & Roses, WOTF and Mars Hotel, is because there's only one drummer on those recordings, Mickey Hart having left the band for 5 years or so, and it makes for a much more precise sound.

So the live recording of the instruments was played back though the amps while they nailed the vocals?  Weird.  But totally cool!

And I think I agree about preferring one drummer.  Especially when that drummer's Bill K.  I know Jerry and Phil get most of the attention from fans and musos for their musical chops, but if I had to nominate one of the Dead for my top player award it might well be Bill.  He's phenomenally good, night after night after night.

Jules

From Wikipedia: "Although Europe '72 is billed as a live album, the songs featured on the release were subject to significant overdubs after the fact, specifically with respect to the lush harmony vocals. Unadulterated multitrack recordings of the performances used for the album are no longer available (because they were simply snipped from the multitrack concert tapes whereupon the band overdubbed directly onto them, destroying the originals) but, for example, the available two-track soundboard recording of the May 10, 1972 show indicates the band had not yet figured out the vocal arrangements for "He's Gone" that would later be overdubbed in the United States."

And yup, glad it was Kreutzmann.  He's got some great comments in the movie about how when he plays it's like dancing.

Disappointingly, the version of He's Gone on Europe '72 fades early and you don't get the lovely harmonies on the tag section.  I've heard other versions since (eg the wonderful version on disc 3 of Dick's Picks 28 from early '73) that are much closer to being definitive.

Jules

Amazingly, it's fifteen years today since Jerry's demise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX9Vhv4akxc&feature=related

Amazing indeed, although maybe its equally amazing he lasted just as long as he did....

The (in my opinion best bit of the) final gig:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZQiAQRMhyM

Nice job Ian. Can't help but feel it for Vinnie Welnick who was a very sweet man, who made the decision a couple years ago to deal with the sometimes overwhelming pain of life by taking a knife to his own throat. Oddly I suppose, though he had known Jerry for a much shorter period, he had the most difficulty dealing with his demise. For me and thousands after that coma Jerry had in 86, it was more a matter of when, I recall Brent Mydland's passing 5 years earlier as much more shocking. Will always be pleased that apparently Jerry left this world with a smile on his face, like the song Brokedown Palace says, "I love you more than words can tell."

Vince Welnick killed himself? What a tragedy.

I've been listening to NRPS, and can't help hearing 'American Beauty' gestating in there. Dave Torbert sounds like the rock version of Phil, great bass player.

Didn't expect to see The Dead come up over here.  Just joined today.  They've long been my favorite band, caught 'em 81 times between April 17, 1987 and May 21, 1995, even on an off-night they were still the best band on the planet.  The vault releases have been wonderful.  I was a longtime DAT trader but gave it all up once CD-Rs became available and quality instantly dropped.  Realized I'd never have the time to listen to over 2000 Dead shows and sold off my collection, they've kept me plenty satisfied over the years with the vault releases, could go for a bit more acknowledgement of the 80s and 90s but I don't complain!

Got any extra cash lying around?  How 'bout buying this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150481586509

Sadly, it says no international shipments, but I'd be happy to store it here for you!

Its a crazy world.  (Maybe you could buy Salinger's toilet and then lean one against t'other....?!)

I'd love to know how much Parish was paid for it....

Good news for the 80's Heads....

This was posted on S7 (an online GD forum):

-----Original Message-----
Subject: [S7] New vault releases

These look good. The listening party samples are a real tease :)

http://www.dead.net/listeningparty-v3n4#
http://www.dead.net/listeningparty-warlocks#


Grateful Dead Archival Releases - Formerly The Warlocks & Road Trips Vol. 3
No. 4


The Grateful Dead's vault must have a gash because
two big releases on are on the horizon. Road Trips Vol. 3 No.
4features
highlights from May 6 and May 7, 1980 while Formerly
The
Warlockscontains
the complete Hampton '89 shows over six discs.


The latest Road Trips release focuses on an interesting period in the band's
history. Newcomer Brent Mydland was injecting new life into songs and
becoming more comfortable with each passing show. This pair of shows -
played at Penn State's  Recreation Hall and Cornell's Barton Hall - focuses
heavily on material from the recently released Go To Heaven and also
includes a number of stellar jams including a blazing China > Rider and a
top-notch Cassidy. There's also good versions of the  Lost Sailor > Saint of
Circumstance and Lazy Lightning > Supplication pairings.

Formerly The Warlocks contains every note played at the band's legendary run
of the same name at the Hampton Coliseum on October 8 and 9, 1989. This
marks the group's first box-set release focusing on material from the '80s.
There are plenty of highlights on these shows - of which high-quality
recordings have circulated for years - including bust outs of Dark Star,
Help On The Way > Slipknot! and Attics of My Life. Both sets are available
for purchase now with Formerly The
Warlocks running $69.99 and Road Trips setting you back $23.98.

Thanks David, faster than Deadnet!  :)

But hark. What's that? It's the sound of p*** being taken. With p&p, over one hundred American dollars for 9 discs? The Road Trips I can live with, even without bonus discs, but those shysters at Rhino are certainly ratcheting up the price, with 6 discs & a bunch of tacky "souvenirs" for $70. C'mon.  :(

This is rather lovely.  (Incidentally, the Yonder Mountain String Band would be great for Cropredy).  The Yonders doing Franklin with Bill and Mickey on board....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVkglGFSDEs

Seconded. Thanks, David.  :)

Thought maybe somebody here might like this, figured this was the right thread - my band, who plays out maybe once every 2 years or so, whether we want to or not, covering "Scarlet Begonias", with our usual reggae-ish treatment of things (at least before the jam section):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1_KBB7R_OQ

 Does anybody know if the 'Closing of Winterland' dvd set was ever available in the UK format?

 Thanks.  :)

Checked packaging & can find no indication that it is region specific. Plays OK on my undoctored & ancient steam driven DVD, so assume it is readable in all areas.

 Hi Ian

 The reason I ask is because the only version I can find for sale is here:

 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Closing-Winterland-Dol-Region-NTSC/dp/B0000C5090

Sorry, I've reached the outer limits of my competence on this. I've checked my copy  again, but cannot find any reference to it being exclusively NSTC format, although it is a US release. I'm sure someone around here can offer sound advice.

 Thanks anyway Ian  :)

how much does it cost?
can you afford it and still put meat on the table for your loved ones?
if the answers to both those questions are yes then the following course of action may be open to you
buy the bloody thing and find out
if it doesn't flog it on amazon market place or ebay, you might even make a profit

jeez youre only buying a dvd

Have a little couth, Jim!  Has someone been rattling your cage?

Jules

Assuming they're not vegetarians.

I think it must be multi region Ian. My dvd player is about 8 years old, and it plays superbly on mine too. You'll love it incidentally.  [;-)

My latest Dick's Picks CD has arrived in Englnad - but now I have to go and pay almost as much again in customs duties.  I'm seriously ticked off.  Won't get fooled again!   >:(

Jules

Ive been caught like that a couple of times too. Sometimes they seem to squeeze through unnoticed without penalty don't they?  

One lives in hope.  I have a 6 CD set of Allan Sherman on its way from the States.  I found it for £70 which is the best price I could find anywhere on the net.  It's over £120 from Amazon UK.  So either way I shan't moan on this one.

Jules

That's a lot of Allan Sherman!  :o

Allan Sherman?
as in "hello mudda hello fadda"?

Yep.  My parents were fans and their enthusiasm rubbed off on me.  We didn't share a love of much music, so Allan Sherman was like bonding glue for our family.  Therefore I can't get too much Allan Sherman.  It'll help me think nice thoughts about my mum and dad, who are now no longer with us.

Jules

the very thought of his records takes me back to a big brown wireless with athlone, luxembourg and hilversum on the dial, the smell of a big pan of cabbage on the cooker and the old fella smoking for england
 its a good place

There is something strangely wonderful about the fact that we can be discussing the Dead and Allan Sherman in the same thread!  :)

In the meantime I hope I don't get stuck with delays and customs charges like your Dick's Picks. I have ordered Dylan's Witmak Demos set from Amazon.com to get the bonus disc. Only $20 for the lot including p&p so I hope it is under the limit.

I think so too.  Some of the mods here might disagree with us though!   :(



You should be OK then.  I've preordered the Dylan mono box with that bonus disc, but I may well get the demos set as well.....and may well even get the US version like you've done and get a spare bonus disc!

Jules

 
'Camp is very entertaining, and they say we'll have some fun when it stops raining'   Is that him?   ??? :-\

I know you are desperate for us to get back on topic Paul but for Jules' benefit, there is a short article in the new Mojo about the new Allan Sherman reissues.

Cool.  Thanks, Gub.  (Though I went for the box over the new reissues because of the bonus tracks).

Uh...any Grateful Dead content in the new Mojo, Gub?   ;)

Jules

Er, probably. I haven't looked that closely. There is an obituary for Ritchie Hayward who played with Little Feat who featured Lowell George who played on a couple of Grateful Dead recordings. Does that help?  ;D

Still grooving to Dick's Picks 33.  They rock mightily on Franklin's Tower.  They almost sound like they're about to metamorphosise into The Who at the end!

Jules

"Road Trips Vol. 3, No.4" (Penn State & Cornell Unis) + "Formerly The Warlocks" box set (Hampton Oct '89) just been delivered as a gift from a chum returning from US (ha, take that HMR&C). Warlocks packaging is really over the top, nice but hardly essential & could have lopped $20 off the asking price.

RT has an interesting mix with Weir very prominent. So far, so good. Interesting that the bootleggers' favourite of Cornell 8th May '77 hasn't appeared yet, perhaps because it's so readily available as a download.

There's another big favourite from 1972, the Veneta show, which is always mentioned in dispatches but which likewise has yet to make it out as an officia relase.  I'm thinking like you that they mut reckon that everyone has it as a boot or a download.

Jules

Indeed.  I've seen bits of great quality film footage, from that show, but not the whole thing. It would make a good candidate for a "View From The Vaults" series. The weather was so hot the band's instruments kept going out of tune (their excuse anyway) & I think a lot of heat stroke cases. Good show, none the less.

Really?  Because some of the fans talk about it like it's some perfect gig, some holy grail!

Jules

.
Indeed.  I've seen bits of great quality film footage, from that show, but not the whole thing. It would make a good candidate for a "View From The Vaults" series. The weather was so hot the band's instruments kept going out of tune (their excuse anyway) & I think a lot of heat stroke cases. Good show, none the less.
[/quote]

Is this the show Ian, where most Deadheads say the best ever Dark Star was performed?  Wasn't it a benefit for Ken Kesey's farmer brother or something? I stand to be corrected however.  8)

There's a rather fascinating (depending on your point of view!) interview with Charlie Miller (GD taper and upgrader extraordinaire) here...

http://www.darkstarpalace.com/2010_10_01_archive.html

Lots of other interesting stuff on that site too...

I'm pretty sure it's one and the same, Pete.

Jules

The Veneta show, if not the best, is the one of the most psychically important shows, or some such hyperbolic guff. It is, however, indeed a cracker. It was arranged as a benefit for Ken Kesey's family's creamery business & tickets were printed on the back of yoghurt pot labels. It was intended as a field trip party for the extended Dead & Prankster families.

Temperature on the day allegedly reached 108F, presumably unusual for Oregon, but as one who flakes when the glass goes over 70F, it must have been hell without much shade available. As folks started to wilt, a bowser was detailed to spray the crowd with water, but in the nick of time, Kesey's brother realised the truck was that used to empty the portable loos & another was hastily found. Phew.

At one point Weirs announces "Well, the sun's making our instruments get mighty strange. So they'll be out of tune for a little while". Later; "We're changing our name to The Sunstroked Serenaders". Ultimately, they abandoned the second set, (Weir) "We're gonna take another break, let the sun go down a little more and come back and play some more", which the duly did, turning in a 30+ min "Dark Star>El Paso".
 
Filmed professionally as "Sunshine Daydream" the final cut has yet to see the light of day.

(info from Dead Base & deadhead's Taping Compendium Vol.1 & CDR)

I've not come across the "darkstarplace" site before, thanks, David. Bang goes Tuesday.  :)

Another Dick's Picks has landed on the doormat!  Volume 20 from 1976.  

Jules

Jules, how do you keep up with it all financially?  I had to give up after  Dick's Picks 9, couldn't keep up with the pace!

I bought the first four From the Vaults, and even splashed out on the two complete album remix box sets, oh yeah the Garcia box set too, but my dear wife was running out of patience even then.   ::)

Well I only started this year, so I never did keep up!  I'm just selecting various Picks to buy as and when I can.

My salary isn't big, but I do live quite simply.  I don't have a car, I don't buy many clothes, the house is paid for out of the money left to me by my parents when they passed on.  So I can afford a few CDs most months.  I feel lucky.  Who knows what might be around the corner?  Maybe next year I won't be able to afford a pot to p*** in.  But for now, I intend to continue indulging myself.

Jules

They were remastered rather than remixed.  In fact they used original mixes whereever they could.  I believe they had to use the 1970s remix of Aoxomoxoa because the original masters couldn't be found, and they used longer edits of some of the tracks on the debut album, but other than that they were all as originally mixed I believe.

Jules (aka Pedant)

Oh and I fogot one other thing - I have no children.  That, right there, for good or ill, is probably the main reason I can go CD shopping!

Jules

I feel like I've got the full picture now Jules! Good luck to you. At least you're spending your money on top quality music!  ;D

No, wait, I left out my shoe size.....

 ::)

Jules

Damn, I knew that there was a major flaw in those details!  :)

As far as I know the Veneta show doesn't have an official release, I only have a cassette copy from an ancient source.

You can get it as a download or a boot, but it hasn't been released as a proper CD set.

Jules

Thanks for the info guys.

And a very Happy Birthday to the baby of the group...Bobby is 63 today.

Ace. What a long strange trip......etc. :)

Incidentally, returning to Veneta for a mo, I just came across this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/GRATEFUL-DEAD-RENAISSANCE-FAIRE-GROUNDS/dp/B001JJECYQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1287307206&sr=1-1

Amazon don't sell boots, eh?  

I need more shows...

(the madness of Deadheadedness laid bare for all to see) [Warning: some swearing!]

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7217017/

Great stuff. Must track down that Vancouver show  ;D

I love that, David, thanks!   ;D

Jules

Ha ha.  A little bit too close to the truth!!

I Need More Shows.......& as if by magic.

http://www.dead.net/road-trips/road-trips-vol-4-no-1?eml=dn/101810/rttext2

I'll be passing on this one - it's not my favouritist era.

Jules

I love the rawness & inventiveness of the 60s stuff, but on the other hand, the prospect of (yet) a(nother) tedious 30 minute "Lovelight" challenges the enthusiasm somewhat. Hey ho, one has to eat a peck of dirt & all that.

I never got over that version of Hey Jude!!   ::)

Picked up the "Movie Soundtrack" box yesterday... listened to disc 1 in the car on the drive home. Stopped at some lights & was getting a strange look from the occupants of the car next to me - realised I had a big grin on my face... can't wait to spend some time over the weekend on discs 2-5!  8)

I got that one for Christmas.  Must pick up the actual movie on of these days.

Jules

The soundtrack is fab, well played & recorded & the movie is worth it for the introductory animation alone. In my humble, both are essential for anyone with a passing interest in the Dead.  :)

I'm still waiting to "get" whatever it is about Grateful Dead. This is about the best bit of music I've heard from them. Sorry about that dated commentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97JXkUK6NsM

I still have a load of youtube clips to look at that were kindly supplied by the excellent Ray Brettman, so I haven't given up just yet.

Sorry to sound like a stuck record, but try listening to American Beauty.

Jules

Not sure I agree with Jules here.  I'm not sure one gets the Dead via AB....its a fantastic album, but immensely atypical and gives no concept of what the Dead actually were...a multi talented live improvisational band.  My best advice to get the Dead is to go to etree and stream/download various shows from right across their career.

But, hell, I still think you have to 'want' to connect with an artiste to be open enough to get them.  The only two artists I can think of that I have tried repeatedly to connect with and ultimately failed is a) Zappa and b) Springsteen.  I see enormous value in both bodies of work, but I still don't love them.  I wish I did.

If you have to try too hard it probably isn't happening.

My advice would be to get a '72 show and head out in the car for a 3 hour drive.  You'll either have fallen in love or chucked the recordings out of the window by the time you get there.  And if you find yourself 200 miles in the wrong direction, then, yep, you've got 'em...  ;D

I don't know about you David, but it's got to the stage now, where I've almost given up hoping some friends and others 'get' the Dead. I honestly quite like being part of the Dead fan's select 'family - if that doesn't sound too pretentious.  Perhaps you just needed to be around at the time?  

Well I was born in '67.  Was I around at the time, then? ;)

I have a large amount of respect for the musical opinions of very many people here on TAW. There are bands who I didn't know about before joining up here. There are some who I now very much regard as essential listening. The "next 5" or "listening to" is something I take notice of, and although I don't have time to follow up every "new" recommendation, I do try to have a listen to a good few.

I've known about the Dead since the 60s, but never got them. This isn't musical snobbery, it's plain and simple, I've just never heard anything by them that has caught my attention. But many on this thread are utter devotees. Is it that wrong that I want to try to see what it is that turns you on. I

I understand that their output is phenomenal. Bigger even than Zappa... I asked some months ago for a reasonable place to start to listen to them, and it seems everyone has a differing opinion as to where this should be.

So in my own way, I'll continue to have the odd listening session and hope that something works for me...

Of course not.  Pretty certain nobody was saying it was.  I certainly wasn't.

Sorry David, I wasn't accusing you or anyone at all. I started by stating that I have a lot of respect for very many people on here. What I meant was very much  a general statement. I'm sort of frustrated that there is something musically going on that I so far, do not understand.

I agree that American Beauty is somewhat atypical, but I still maintain it's the best road 'in'.  The rest starts to fall into place after you've heard them at their most accessible.  Well for me it did anyway.

I slightly differ in my summation of what the Dead were/are.  To me they're the ultimate musical melting pot.  The took all kinds of music (rock, soul, blues, country, bluegrass, jazz, funk, disco, etc) and filtered it though their playing and personalities.  Improvisation was one, major, part of it, but they could also be concise when that suited the song.  They were a living jukebox, a crazy music history lesson, the ultimate people's music band.  Something like that, anyway.

Jules

I don't disagree with any of that...good description, Jules.  

Then again I am 12 hours into a 15 hour shift and I may be hallucinating (but not in a good way)  :)

Thanks, man, I really struggled for several minutes trying to get that down and I still didn't manage to type what I was feeling!

Jules

I've been 4 days working this out. No, you weren't around then.  ::)

I've been 4 days working this out.
[/quote]

Pete.  Seek help.  There are more important things in life ;D

this has just appeared on dime,well about half four this after
Jerry Garcia - 1982-04-10 - Capitol Theater, Passaic, NJ, early show - AUD Cousinit 109415 - The one and only Jerry Garcia solo performance

This needs further investigation Jim. Thanks for the tip off!

Three more shows from the Download Series sitting here ready to be converted from FLAC to wav.  First up is Volume 8 from late '73.  These shows are great fun - it's like you get to make your own album from the constituate parts.   :)

Jules

Why?

Jules likes burning Audio CDs I believe, Mike.

I love that "Jules is sooo dark ages" undertone there, David.   ;)

Jules

Yes, but my question about conversion still stands.

It's likely that the burning software he uses cannot handle flacs. It was my understanding that even software that does handle flacs does so by converting to wav in the background before converting to cda ... have they improved on that process?

and you cant play flacs on windows media player

Well, actually you can if you download the codecs.

Can't play FLACs on my boombox or in the car or on my hi-fi either.

I rarely listen to music on a PC.

Jules

Then why download in FLAC in the first place? Does the site have an option for downloading in other formats? Any time you transcode a file (even between two lossless formats) you lose a small amount of the quality.

Only other format was MP3, which sound like a piece of cr*p.

Jules

What bitrate? If it's higher than 192kbps, I doubt you can tell the difference between that and FLAC.

Why would I bother finding out when FLAC was an option?

Jules

What the hell are guys on about?   Vinyl and cds I say  ???

Do they cost the same? Do you ever listen to them on your computer or just burn them straight to disc? You might as well save yourself the download time and disk space if the mp3 bitrate is high enough.

i have no problem with mp3 with a bitrate of 192 and over
mp3 gets a bad name when people start doing mp3's of cds that were recorded from mp3 in the first place thats why i mark my cds as whether they were recorded from wav/flacs or mp3
i mp3 most of my stuff to e-mail or use in a mp3 player and keep the flacs should i want to burn a cd

Cost the same?  Yes - both options were free and gratis.  Do I listen on PC?  No.  Straight to disc?  Yes.  Will my hi-fi, car stereo and boombox play either FLAC or MP3?  No.  Therefore the answers are simple enough.  But I'd only ever choose MP3 if it were the only option, and would choose FLAC even if FLAC were the pricier option.

Jules

Mike's had this same discussion on here a number of times...I'm not sure why he gets so upset about other people doing other things even if he thinks they are irrational, but still!  Fwiw, I download and store in FLAC (and play the files with Foobar on my PC) mainly so that I can make audio CDs for other people.  The options for burning Audio CDs directly from FLAC have never worked properly for me.  And I'm used to doing it like I do.  So yah boo sucks.  ;D

I've had it once before, I think. With Jules. I'm not irate, I'm just confused as to why people make things more difficult for themselves.

But Mike, can you be sure that your version of easy is the same as mine?  Converting FLACs to wavs doesn't hurt me at all.  In fact, I quite enjoy it!   :)

Jules

For sure Jules, if one's computer is in ok shape it takes very little time. And as compared with the old tape trading days, which had their own deep merits, still, almost no comparison. Much was better many years ago but in no wise everything. As marvelous as something like Dime Torrents is, to a person in excess of 50, it is sort of the vague outline of heaven.

Could we move the technical discussion to Help Desk in The Arms please.

Many thanks,

Paul

Actually my PC's fit for the knackers yard, but yeah, it's still quicker than sitting next to a cassette deck doing real-time compilations for 90 minutes at a time.  I must have spent 5 years of my life doing that!   :o

Jules

PS  Just seen's Paul's topic drift post.  Uh....insert Grateful Dead reference here!   ;D

30 days of the Dead on deadnet... (a free download a day in Nov).  You need to register.

http://www.dead.net/node/16757

Cool.  Thanks, David.  I wonder, do you have to log on every day to catch them all, or can you grab a few on later days?

Jules

Been listening to Download Series, Vol. 4 from June 1976 today.  I noticed lots of mistakes but heaps of energy too, so that makes it a overall positive listening experience.  I put both down to the Dead having been off the stage for a year and a half - this was soon after they came out of 'retirement'.  Jerry's guitar playing sounds particularly firey - sometimes he's rocking and rolling on ballads, but so joyously that you forgive him!

Jules

I'm collecting these daily - I hope the other heads on this forum are doing likewise.  I'm planning on compiling them chronologically when the month is through....

Jules