TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

I'm sure I recall reading somewhere (probably Wikipedia) that Simon Nicol's production work on BL wasn't best received by the rest of the band. Having spent some revision time in advance of the tour listening again, I really can't think why. Does anyone remember first hand if this came up at the time, or what the alleged problem was? Um, everyone should be over it now, yes?

I recall reading about that but I agree with you that there appears very little, if anything, to moan about.  For starters, Simon certainly gave DM a superb drum sound - maybe the best he ever had.  I have no idea whose beef it was and what the particulars were though.

Jules

Wouldn't the drum sound be as much down to the engineer as the producer? I know Simon co-produced the album with John Wood, but did he engineer it too? John Wood was noted for his skill and perfectionism as an engineer, so it wouldn't be any surprise to learn that he looked after that side of things.

Bear in mind also that the supposed friction wasn't necessarily related to the sound of the finished album, it could be about any of the myriad issues the producer has to handle, many of which are decidedly non-musical.

Good points both!

Jules

I seem to remember reading that in Patrick Humphries' book.This disgruntlement (IIRC) was the basis for Simon's quitting of the band,along with some other factor which cropped up on the subsequent tour.

It was also said by some that the fact that Simon is standing aloof from the other three on the inside cover illustration was indicative of his estrangement from the others.

I certainly have no issues with the production.

I missed the live performances first time around, so am really looking forward to hearing it in its entirety soon!

DC

Fine sound for DM on BL, one factor that got me into FC in the first place.

Can anyone sort out a question I have?  According to the Expletive Delighted website the BBC Babbacombe Lee TV documentary was made in late 1974, but on the Fairport UnConventional box set the two tracks taken from the documentary (Farewell to a Poor Man's Son and the Sandy version of Breakfast in Mayfair) are dated 1973.

Which date is correct?  I'm inclined to go with the Expletive Delighted date, but does anyone know for sure?

And a secondary question, who is the male singer on the TV version of Breakfast in Mayfair?  The Free Reed site says it is Sandy Denny and Simon Nicol, but it doesn't sound quite like Simon, and he wasn't in the band then anyway.  But nor does it sound (to my ears) like anyone else who was in the band then (Dave Swarbrick, Dave Pegg, Dave Mattacks, Trevor Lucas, Jerry Donahue, Sandy Denny according to Expletive Delighted).

Heylin's "Gypsy Love Songs & Sad Refrains" gives a recording date of "The Man They Could Not Hang" as 24th September 1974 & he  repeats this in his " No More Sad Refrains" biog. But he also lists Sandy performing "Cell Song", rather than "Breakfast In Mayfair", so accuracy is not his strong point, even in detail.

What I'd like to know is why the BBC chose to excise "Breakfast In Mayfair", in my opinion the highlight of the programme, from the repeat broadcast, rather than some of Belvin Braggs commentary, or Martin Carthy's ballads?

It is indeed Simon Nicol.

Don't think Trevor was present.

I can't help but think that the confusion is down to a mix up of dates for music recording, filming, and broadcast.  Wasn't the show broadcast in early '75?  I'm pretty confident that that would rule out 1973, so I'm reckoning on a late '74 recording date, as per Heylin (who despite getting the song titles wrong, is at least renowned for getting his dates right).

Jules

Yeah it was made in late 1974. The line-up was the Rising For The Moon band but with Nicol instead of Trevor.

OK, so it sounds as if Expletive Delight got the recording date right, but the personnel wrong, and Free Reed got it the other way round!

Thanks for your help, everyone.

As ever, Fairport Confusion.

Even I can't remember it all, but I do know it must have been winter because the Roundhouse (where the filming of the prison imagery was done, was so chilly the shots included clouds of breath steam!)

Still a shame it's not commercially available.

Does anyone have a copy of the TV programme? I can't believe I missed it at the time - I was the kind of fan who missed nothing in those days. On the other hand I was a student. . .

I'm not even sure it exists anymore....   The tracks that have had an audio release sound like they were taped from the telly.  That might be all there is.  Anyone know different?

Jules

I corresponded with another Talkawhiler, who says he has a copy of the repeat broadcast. Sadly, in the repeat the BBC edited out 'Breakfast in Mayfair'. There seems to be no video of 'Breakfast' in existence (unless Simon knows otherwise?)

A colleague today asked rather randomly if we wanted to see a picture of his great-great grandfather. It turns out that he was the hangman who didn't manage to hang John Lee!
CD on its way to work...

Wow!

Jules

Is his name Berry as well?

Tomorrow is the 40th anniversary of the 1st live performance of JBL... so guess what will be on the CD player!

I once spotted a copy of Berry's autobiography in Philip Son & Nephew (a proper bookshop in Liverpool, just round the corner from Frank Hessey's, where the Fab Four used to get their instruments).  It was in a sale - I wish I'd bought it.  I did have a quick look, and IIRC, he denied any suggestion of bribery to tamper with the mechanism...

No.
I don't even know why he mentioned it, but he did look rather startled when I started to sing at him!

Did you do the whole album?   ;D

Jules

Just the line where the hangman says "Lee I'm really sorry forgive these hands of mine" - we do have to do some work, you know  ::)

The repeat of the TV programme was on BBC2 Sat 1 February 1975. No I'm not that anal - it's just that a bunch of us were up in Newcastle for a friend's wedding that day. Rather than face the rigours of the Bigg Market (we'd already had a few ::)  )  we crashed out in the TV lounge of the hotel - and there was John Babbacombe Lee on the telly. We watched it right through even though Match of the Day was on BBC1.      

That very same evening, we were sat at the side of the road waiting for a breakdown truck.  We'd been to visit my aunt & uncle in Birmingham (in fact in Peggy/Ric territory - Acocks Green) & the car let us down a few miles from home.  So I've never seen the programme either.

you can read it online or down load it to a reader here
http://www.archive.org/details/MyExperiencesAsAnExecutioner Chapter Vii is about John lee.

Hardcore  ;D

I'd love to see the prog

You and me both, Bridg!

Jules

we need a campaign :)

Paint me a sign - I'll march!   ;)

Jules

Full page ad (in the latest issue of fRoots) for the Wintour includes "look out for 2 new Fairport CDs"... Babbacombe Lee Live Again and By Special Request.  No release dates given - I hope (expect?!) they'll be on the merch table in Jan/Feb.

And I hope available by other means as I think I will be missing the Wintour this year for the first time since '89.

someone must have it it was released as a video by the BBC in 1992.

Really?  Only this is the first I've heard.

Jules

thats what someone recently told me anyway... maybe its wrong?

There was certainly a rumour that it was going to be released.  (Through Friends of Fairport?)

I don't think it ever materialised, though.  It's not listed on Expletive Delighted.

That's my memory of it - mooted, maybe even came close, but didn't happen.

Sounds like it failed in the execution................................. ::)

Groan

Nomination for riposte of the day!

Hah! Barry - you fell into the trap!

(Which is more than JBL did...)

Never released as far as I know. Ian Rennie and I looked at the possibility, as did Simon Hart when he was at Terrapin Trucking. At the time the costs involved were prohibitive, the main stumbling block being the silent footage that was included. This had some sort of separate copyright agreement and cost an arm and a leg per second to license. I believe that the "Second House" showing is the one that the BBC still has, not the original.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=348104445215258&set=a.118095884882783.17462.112360318789673&type=1&theater

Yay!  :)

Can't access Facebook from here Ian. What does it say?

Artwork from new Babbacombe Lee Live Album, and also of the By Popular Request.

Wish I was more excited about both of these but hmmm

DW

I'm not too bothered about the latter but judging from last year's live performances and in particular the performance at Cropredy I think BL might be a cracker, albeit a less "electric" interpretation than the album (fiddle solos substituting for guitar solos).

Well, I have done my duty to King and Country and ordered both new albums, even though I think there's a mighty fine chance I'll absolutely loathe one of them (you know which one).  Will be thrilled to the core if I don't of course, and am pretty certain I'll enjoy the BL.  Happy to give the boys an anniversary pay day though.  I hope they don't spend it all at once...

Your 20 quid won't even buy them a round David!!!   :-X ;D

As I find a whole album of Swarb vocals a bit heavy going I know I will end of playing the new live version of BL much more. That's not to understate the massive contribution he made but the last tour showed Chris Leslie's vocals are perfect for this album.

???

eh? did i just read that or was it the 3 day old curry i had for tea making me hallucinate :o

Especially since Swarb wasn't the only singer on the album....most of, but not the only!  ;)

Heresy!  Off with his head!   :o

Jules

Agreed, not worth even trying to hang him.

Well I already committed heresy in October when I said the following:

"Much as I like the 60s era albums the original recording of Meet on the Ledge doesn't quite capture the full glory of the song's evolution"

Darren

Oh yeah, I remember that little cracker too.  Stay calm......   :-X

I've heard the mechanism is unreliable anyway.

Paul

Where´s the "Like " button...?   ;D ;D

if we stand him in the corner he'll just clutter the place up

Not to understate Swarb's brilliant fiddle playing, his massive contribution to the folk-rock and folk genres, his song-writing skills etc etc etc.

But surely someone in the world is going to agree with me that Chris Leslie's vocals are preferable to Dave Swarbrick's?

Er.....nope!

Another, most insistent 'nope' here too...

There is a school of thought which holds that Dave Pegg's vocals are preferable to Dave Swarbrick's.

It's in Hungary.

And another.  Chris has a lovely voice, but Swarb's has more character, and that's more important to me.

Jules

But they are very different type singers, its not a matter of preference for me. Chris has been singing a lot of Swarbs songs over the years, JBL included. But they were all Swarb's songs to begin with, and without them we wouldn't be having this particular discussion. I am glad a lot of that material has been brought back in over the years, stuff they weren't doing in the 80's and early 90's except perhaps at Cropredy-Now Be Thankful, Rosie, Hexhamshire Lass, etc....all associated with Swarb, but now being sung by Chris. But I don't prefer one over the other personally.

I agree it's great that Chris has brought a number of classic Swarb songs from the archives. I will certainly be playing the new BL CD a lot when it arrives. No-one can blame me for wanting to do that can they???

At the risk of having heavy objects hurdled at me - yes, I'll agree with you, whole-heartedly.

Thank you Heather - let's huddle together in a corner at Cropredy and have large objects thrown at us...

Nah, its ok Darren, no blame from me. If you prefer Chris's vocals, its cool of course. I'm a big fan of both in reality. I'm glad Chris and the band are bringing some back, I'm happy to listen to the originals with Swarb as well. I thoroughly enjoyed hearing JBL at Cropredy and will be getting the live album at some point.

Yes, I'm going to agree with you. I love Swarb's voice, but I love Chris's more.

Er, can I join you please? I like both but I love Chris's voice particularly.

Now, if we could just get him to lay off the mando and pick up the leccy guitar more often ....  ::)

I have to side with Chris L is this one I'm afraid

No, Swarb every time.

In many ways chris has a better voice, more tuneful, a sweeter tone, great clarity BUT

Swarb's voice has amazing drama, character, attitude, he plays around the melody almost like a great swing singer.

Swarb for me.

Dw

I like 'em both.

One is not better than the other, IMO; they're just different. But I will risk bodily harm here and say I much prefer the post 1985 line ups over the earlier ones. Sorry, gang, but I just do. I like 'em all, but the later ones speak to me better.

is this an age thing? My ears may agree but my heart and soul says no

Some are saying Chris and some are saying Dave,....there's only one way to sort this out.......



FIGHT!!!!!!!!

What, between Chris and Swarb? That would be a bit mad!

I know where my money would be....

How about a scrape-off?

Hadn't really thought of Swarb in that way, but I think you're absolutely right. A good example would be "Me With You" from the "Rosie" album. I can't imagine Chris nailing that one in the way Swarb does.

I like both of them.  Although I like Swarb singing Swarb stuff and CL singing CL stuff.

I'll be curious to hear Babbacombe Lee ...

I will always take feel, passion and raw emotion over 'skill' and 'accuracy' in almost anything.  That's why I love Swarb above all comers.  It's also why my list of favourite vocalists would include artists like Neil and Bob who, technically are about as proficient at singing as my ar....mpit.

;-)

Sometime they both go together (Sandy maybe?), but not imho very often...

Incidentally, is there any Whippersnapper (although I saw them a few times I don't know their material that well) which features just Swarb and Chris singing in tandem?

Unless there was something live, I don't think so David. From recollection (other than the few Whippersnapper songs which made its way onto the Swarb box set, I have Tsubo, Promises and These Foolish Strings on cassette (!) ) there wasn't a song with just the two of them singing. Fiddle yes, singing, no.

Exactly. I think Chris has an excellent voice for Swarb's material in the current line up. His performance on Babbacombe Lee was a tour de force and he puts songs like Rosie and Hexhamshire Lass across skilfully and with conviction but, given the choice, I would still rather hear Swarb sing his own (era's) material.

Quite apart from Swarb's instinctive technical skill as a singer (a little like Louis Armstrong in that respect?) his voice has a warmth, authority and perhaps most importantly, authenticity. It also, for reasons I cannot begin to justify, reminds me of my Dad.

Chris interprets Swarbrick's material beautifully (and differently of course - otherwise what would be the point?). But in tone and delivery he has a little bit in common with Iain Matthews, so for me I'd be interested in hearing Chris sing some of the earlier songs.

He and Chris While doing "You Never Wanted Me" for example would be a mouthwatering prospect.

Now that is one that sounds tantalizing Peter...or maybe even Suzanne (though Simon has done that in duet with Vikki I believe)

One of my favourite early Fairport songs (which I've never known them do live) is "Book Song".
I'm pretty sure Chris would make a fine job of that.

... and Bonny Black Hare!!

I think Chris has a fine voice and within the current line up, is the best one to sing on the Swarb related songs.  But I mostly prefer the original versions.

However, can I risk the ire of all and sundry and proclaim that I can't abide 'Bonny Black Hare'?  I love 99% of the trad stuff that Swarb sings on, but for some reason I really can't stand that song.  When Steeleye Span did a version of it on 'Bloody Men' a year or two ago I was prepared to give it a listen, but no, not even Maddy's dulcet tones can save the song for me.  

Sorry, I'll go and hide and put on me tin hat! ;)

After you with the hat - it doesn't do much for me either.

Jules

I'm so glad somebody else said it first. Can't stand it either. It is from one of my very favourite Fairport albums but is my second least favourite Fairport song ever.

Are you going to tell us your least favourite then?

My least fave has to be Travelling by Steam... not keen at all...  :(

Ok, one doesn't like it, fair enough, but that is (when one considers some of the stuff released in recent decades) one of the more preposterous statements I've ever seen on here (mine own included)  ;D

That's on the 25th Anniversary Cropredy album, I think.

As it happens, it's the 30th Anniversary concert ('The Cropredy Box'). But hey, what's a 5 year difference in a 45 year career?!?

I'm not that enthusiastic about a lot of the post '97 (Who Knows Where The Time Goes) material but I don't detest any of it to the point of complete intolerance. BBH though really grates on me. I can't explain why. It is just a personal thing. Something to do with the sound of it I think, like fingernails on a blackboard. As for my least favourite, I have mentioned before on another thread somewhere that it is My Feet Are Set For Dancing (or whatever it is called) from the otherwise decent Gladys' Leap. An abomination and completely unlistenable to me.

I'm not too keen on Hexhamshire lass which seems to have been a favourite with the band. On the other hand I would love to hear Lord Marlborough and Wizard of the wordly game attempted by the current lineup

I can't figure out how a person can like Lord Marlborough and not like Hexhamshire Lass - they have a very similar style in common.

Jules

 I see your point but I have never thought too deeply about it. I liked Hexhamshire Lass well enough when it came out originally but having heard it live so many times I think I have grown a bit weary of it whereas there are other songs in the repertoire I am happy to hear in any set. I have however never heard Lord Marlborough or Wizard of the Wordly Game Live (have either of them ever appeared in a set list) and would be interested in hearing their interpretation.

Al, I am with you on My Feet Are Set For Dancing...unlistenable to me, and can I risk ire here and say I really don't get Cathy LeSurf. I find a few songs tolerable (ok, thread drift I guess, since I'm talking with the Albions), but her voice leaves me cold mostly. Of course in a 45 year career, one cannot like every single thing...there are always going to be songs that one doesnt respond to. Oddly enough all the songs mentioned here are not on my list  ;)

I will just say that one of the reasons I like Travelling By Steam is for the tune at the end, and the story about it Ric mentions in the notes to Jewel In The Crown.

I actually quite like MFASFD, but I don't know why I like it.

Travel by Steam (or Swaggering Boney as its more commonly known) is great tune and an awesome dance too.  :D

Indeed Ollie. I quite like Martin Carthy's version of Swaggering Boney (with one Bruce Rowland on drums), and somwhere I have a more traditional version of it as well...its a very good tune.

Just to continue your topic drift, this subject came up in an Albions thread. I am similarly resistant to Cathy's charms. I was a latecomer to the Albions anyway but now have much of their stuff. In the middle of my collection though is a big Cathy LeSurf shaped hole.

What? Back on topic? Certainly sir. The new live BL is being sent out this week I believe. Looking forward to it very much.

Cathy was the female lead singer at Cropredy when I first got on board.  I think she has a classic folk-rock voice myself so I have to say I find it difficult to dislike.  Then again, I don't exactly sit at home listening to Day Trip to Bangor every day (I don't imagine the Oysterband do either though to be fair...)  ;D

Cathy has never been an official member of the band.

(Assuming we're talking Fairport, not Albions) Of course not, that's why I wrote 'at Cropredy'....

Yes I did mean FC...

She used to do a music 'thing' locally here.. and part of her publicity material stated that she was a member of Fairport...

Now it could have been a journalistic mistake.. or not... but it really irked me  :o :o

She's sung with them enough times for it to be mentioned, and she's certainly a fully paid up member of the extended 'Fairport family', but, no, she's never been a member...although I seem to remember there was talk for a while back in the day...

It's quite common.  A local paper reporting on Fairport at The Orchard in Dartford some years back cited Dave Pegg as a founder member.  When I wrote and pulled them up on it, they responded that that was what the band's publicity material said.  Rewriting history really irks me, too.  :o :o

Totally off topic I know, but deserves repetition...

When advertising a Swarb gig a Grimsby paper stated that he had recovered from a 'double heart transplant'  :o ::) ;)

(This is a true story)

Well, that's the next Doctor Who sorted out then...  ;)

I believe you Jen! I have a feeling I have heard this story before. I find it incomprehensible that such an error can get "out there". Journalists, eh?  ::) Back OT - I love Swarbs voice, and I also love Chris Leslie's rendition of Cell Song.  8)

The first time I heard the current line-up play The Cell Song, with the 3-part harmonies on the last verse - shivers up the spine time.  One of those moments that just "hits the spot".  (There's a guitar solo towards the end of The Orchestral Tubular Bells that has much the same effect on me).

Don't know why, but I find the way Chris L plays the Mandolin picking part on 'Trial Song' really enchanting. I noticed it when they played it last year, and couldn't figure out why I hadn't noticed it on the album before. I listened to the album back and noticed that Chris doesn't play it the same way Swarb did. DI can't really tell what the difference is, all I know is I really love the way Chris plays it.

I really am looking forward to this live version as well...so glad I got to hear it in person last year at Cropredy. Even though I knew it was coming, I really could not believe I was hearing them perform an album I knew every nuance of, and played hundreds of times over the years in its entirety. Having an extra member in the band unlike with the four piece that recorded it gave it more depth as well. Overdubs are fine, but with either Ric adding violin parts where there were none before, or Chris adding mandolin parts (not to mention Ric on the bass uke  ;)), the songs sounded fabulous...and thats before even discussing the vocals!

I remember a brief time when me and my sister did sit at home listening to Day Trip to Bangor every day. But you probably needed to be of a certain age in the late 70s to have gone through that particular ritual....

I seem to recall Chris singing Lord Marlborough, it was either during a Wintour, or Peggy's 60th, because I recall the setting as being Brum Town Hall. However, it might just have been the Barbican gig from a few years back as I don't recall hearing it in St Albans, which pretty much rules out the Wintour option.

It struck me particularly because the song is one of my favourites, and Chris's enunciation allowed me to sort out a phrase or two which I hadn't been able to decipherfrom Swarb's recorded version.

DC

It definitely made the Winter Tour setlist a few years back.  Possibly 2009?  There or thereabouts anyway.  Shame it didn't stay.

I'm almost certain it was 2009 too Greg.

Finally! Got around to buying the CD  :D

Really looking forward to it  :)

That's such sloppy journalism. Everyone knows it was a triple heart transplant

The postie's been!  ;D

So has mine but he didn't bring any goodies.  Just a rather large credit card bill. :(

Haven't bought the CD's yet. I really want to hear them in full, but I always prefer buying the CD's at the gig and listening to them on the way home, so it's likely I'll be doing that again.

Doh! He's not been here! So what do you think? What do you think? Eh? Eh? Do tell!

Excellent. Saw in live on the Wintour, but there's plenty I'd forgotten. There's some great tweaks in the interpretation from the original. Simon in particular does some interesting things. Surprisingly, there are quite a nice twists even from the Crop 08 version. Will post a proper review when I have it to hand-sat at bar atm.

Brilliant performance and recording ,that may well get more spins than the original chez Bassline. Cell Song is probably Chris' best vocal ever.
My only quibble is the sharp fade of the crowd at the end - surely a bit of standing ovation - huge round of applause would have been more approprite?

I agree, it's fantastic.

that was my only beef with the steeleye"now we are 6 again" cd as well, why do live cd's of theres little or no audience?

Yep it really is terrific. Beautifully performed and recorded and amongst its many pleasures, I don't think Gerry has ever sounded better on a Fairport record.

I wonder which venues it was "taped" at. I'm guessing not Union Chapel.

Info about the venues is the one thing missing. I don't know why, but it would have been nice to know if I was in the audience when any of the versions that ended up on disc were performed (as I was for one track on a Grateful Dead live album, I'm pleased to say).

It really is superb, though.

Great packaging by Mick Toole as well, particularly the "envelope" which holds the disc itself.
S&J

Just wondering, is there meant to be a booklet with the new Babbacombe Lee album? (If so, mine hasn't got one).

Mine either so I suspect not. All the info is on the slipcase.

Cheers GubGub.

It's arrived :)   Only heard the first track but Chris's voice is on top form.  :)

Wouldn't it have been cool if the pairs of "wrong" letters on the hangman drawings had been SN, DP, CL, RS & GC?
Or maybe I'm missing something...

 ;D I love the design of the sleeve, I've not got it in front of me at the mo tho - do the missing letters spell anything?

Can't crack the code meself...
UR, TW, SH, PD, FK
on the Babbcombe Lee Live Again side and...
UH, SL, MW, DB, GY on the Fairport Convention side.
That's assuming, of course, that they're sets of pairs and not to be read vertically.
Be gentle if I'm being dense...

That literally made me lol  ;D

A coincidence for me to see this old thread resurrected.

I've just sent for the Babbacombe Lee live record.

Cripes...I bet they haven't sold many of them recently!

I was playing it just last week. I love the studio album but Live Again is a great listen too.

Yep, love them both as well. There are some really tight moments on Live Again that are better than the original album IMHO. Some of that is helped by being a five piece instead of the four piece that recorded the album. But the original has a real feel to it and the crossfade between songs helps.