TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

For the first time in a while, as I cooked dinner last night I listened to Liege and Lief from beginning to end. Quite apart from marvelling at how good it is, and how I still love it 30 years after I first heard it, I started thinking about an issue that I don't think I've ever seen addressed anywhere.

I was thinking about the fact that Swarb had been brought in as a full-time band member at this point, and initially thought "Having a really respected, established name from the folk scene on board must have made the whole electric folk idea more palatable to those on the more traditional wing". And then it struck me that I didn't know how this actually played out. Was that the case? Did the folk purists look at the album at least with the thought that there must be something in this if someone like Swarb was getting involved? Or was it thought that Swarb was acting as a traitor (did anyone shout "Judas" at their record player?  ;))? Or did the purists just ignore the whole thing? (I seem to remember reading that Bert Lloyd approved, but that's just one man, albeit a very influential one.) And I felt surprised that, to my memory, I've never read anything about this issue or heard any band member say anything about it. Maybe that's because there was no issue ... I don't know.

Any thoughts?

At the time, the folk scene got behind the idea with a vengeance, I don't recall a single voice raised in protest.   All the complaints came from the rock scene who didn't want the band to play folk etc      swarb

Hello Swarb, long time no visit!

Jules

Many thanks, Swarb! I was beginning to think nobody had an opinion on my question, but it's good to have the definitive answer from the one who knows best!

I guess your answer tells us a lot about the inclusiveness and open-mindedness of the folk scene, while reflecting less well on the rock scene at the time. Or do you think (all modesty aside) that the inclusion of two highly respected folk performers, in the shape of Sandy Denny and your good self, aided the acceptance on the part of the folk crowd?

Hard to say, I think the folk scene was maybe ready to move on or polarise, shortly after L and L  it seemed that lots of folk people were plugging in, very few rockers though bought fiddles      

Great, thanks for that Swarb. Oh, and for all the superb music, too!  :)

I'm one of the rock scene who hated the idea of FC going fully folk.  At the time, and for many years after, I reckoned that Dave Swarbrick joining was the ruination of the band (no offence intended).  Sure, they did some excellent stuff, 'Matty Groves', etc, but it all became very samey.  My opinion has mellowed of late but I still believe the early albums and music was the best.

"Samey?" Perhaps, but some folks like that in their favorite bands.  :)  I preferred the reliable jangle of the original Byrds to the later stuff where the ric had been tamed by Clarence's tele.  

Who can say? Personally, I think L&L gave the band an identity which provided its longevity.  Regardless of the direction, Sandy and Richard were destined to leave.  It might have taken another album or two, but it was inevitable.  They were just too prolific and talented to stay within the confines of a single band. Without their presence, a Fairport which might have remained a cool, eclectic flower bomb ensemble would have collapsed and disappeared.  

While British folk rock did not shake the music scene, at least Fairport owned the prestige of its invention....and with a highly regarded Swarb at the band's helm, it had an identity and credibility by which to build upon.  But more so, the band became reliant on a style rather than individual talents to keep the ball rolling.  

L&L saved Fairport - IMHO.  :)  

I sort of know what you mean, but I love Clarence's playing so much.  Maybe an opportunity missed for more interplay between the two guitars?  I think Roger was somewhat intimidated by Clarence's chops though.

Jules

Dang!  Who wouldn't be, right?    :)  It was like trying to keep up with Coltrane on a harpsichord!    ;)

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It was like trying to keep up with Coltrane on a harpsichord!    ;)
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Coltrane on a harpsichord? Wow, I'd love to hear that!

Just weighing in---I first got into Fairport via "Nine," which I still love. I didn't hear L&L until s few years later and (to my ears) it was fantastic for its day, but hasn't aged all that well. What can I say? I also prefer the latter period Byrds as well. Same with Little Feat. I don't expect anyone here to agree, though. No worries.

Truth be known, my very favorite Fairport record is still the next one...

until you've actually  heard it

Steady on Jim!   :-X ;D

Shurely shome mishtake?????   I do like all stages of the Byrds catalogue, but can't imagine ANYONE preferring Little Feat's output post Lowell George? IMHO.

I can imagine anyone liking pretty much anything, or there would really only be one listener telling us all what to like. I can appreciate the importance of an album but not enjoy the record, all the Doors output for example, this is proven every time Liege and Lief comes up as a topic or Gottle o' Gear gets mentioned.

I can appreciate Liege and Lief, it's not my favorite album but I understand it's importance. I have come to expect my favorites to change on a daily basis as music is really about situation and feeling for me  rather than an analytical concerns. I even at times enjoy The Monkees more than the Beatles, although I have to admit the Beatles jokes are more long lasting.

Neil

Interesting comment.  I wasn't old enough to be interested in FC at that time, so my views are entirely with hindsight.  I am not sure that FC went "fully folk" when Swarb joined: they were performing trad/folk style material before that and after he joined there was still a rock feel about much of the material (A Sailor's Life, Matty Groves, and Poor Will.. for example).  Swarb and RT wrote or were involved with much of the best loved FC material of that time and even after RT's departure there was a rock/progressive edge to their music (much of "Nine" for example).

If Swarb joining was the tipping point, that makes only the debut and What We Did..as the best music.  Dare I say it (knowing there will be some who will agree with this comment) bit like saying that Floyd went downhill as soon as Gilmour joined or Deep Purple were ruined once Ian Gillan took over from Rod Evans etc etc

For me, there were 2 Fairports.  The one prior to L&L, which I loved, and the one after L&L, which did very little for me, with L&L being the transition point.  So, Swarb's joining was not the issue, it was what appeared to be his steadily increasing influence which changed the band's direction in a way that did not appeal to me.  Fairport would probably have ceased without him anyway, but I would have been none the worse off.

And, for the record, I am a fan of almost everything The Byrds have produced.

There's never been a Little Feat without Lowell George.  :)  That other band is the Paul and Bill Show......

Also, Clarence and the latter Byrds sang Truck Stop Girl from the early Feats......so things just ain't adding up here!!!  ;)

And, also for the record, NINE might be my favorite Fairport album too!!  :)

The only question whenever there is a lineup change is do you want the new line up or nothing at all? Because thats the only choice you've effectively got. We should be thankful that certain members have kept it going for so long.
My own favourites are Holidays and Unhalfbricking but that doesnt mean I dont love a lot of the other stuff too.

Nothing wrong with liking the Monkees. Vastly underrated musically.

I love all eras of The Byrds.

Little Feat were obviously at their peak with Lowell but their set a couple of years ago was one of the best I've seen in 25 years of Cropredy.

Is my memory playing tricks or have loads of rock bands had fiddles?

Not enough of 'em if you ask me!

Jules

It's a Beautiful Day, and Flock were a couple from around that time. I don't remember any rock bands using fiddle at all in the early days of FC. But I will be now proved wrong I expect..  ;D

Family, Curved Air, String Driven Thing, ELO, Velvets (viola), Mahavishnu, Jefferson Airplane, Mayall,King Crimson, Roxy, Zappa, hawkwind etc

Some big names there.

I know of two others, albeit that it wasn't before 1970/71 that I learned about them

Bobby Notkoff played electric violin first with Electric Flag (1967), after that with the Rockets (1968 - LP on White Whale). When that last group became Crazy Horse under the guidance of Neil Young he wasn't part of it, but he did play on the song "Running Dry (Requiem for the Rockets)" of their first album together "Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere" (1969)

Seatrain with Richard Greene on electric violin started in 1969, when Peter Rowan joined in 1970 they became rather wellknown

Then there's the electric viola, as played by John Cale in the Velvet Underground......

Leatherat and Levellers of course, if you count them as rock bands, which I do. A band from the 70s I was rather fond of who played a fiddle (all the time or was it just some of the time, my memory fades) was Bethnal, who were lumped in with punk/new wave but weren't really, they were more like hard rock, saw them a few times, was convinced as I so often was back then that they would be huge, sadly they weren't.

Have to agree about Little Feat, can't match your 25 Cropredys but certainly one of the best live performances I have ever seen anywhere.

Yes Robert, I liked Craig Fuller from his earlier band Pure Prairie League, but I couldn't believe it when they brought him in as LG's replacement. 'Twas never going to work for me. It left me 'Cold, cold,cold' - if you'll excuse the pun.  ::)

The first two PPL albums are wonderful.  Big time faves of mine.

Jules

The Dixie Dregs had some great fiddling.

Doesn't some of David Lindley's work with Jackson Browne come into this timescale?

Succinctly and rather wonderfully put.  :)

Didn't Jim Lea (bass player with Slade, who co-wrote most of their songs) also play violin? 'Coz I Luv U' springs to mind

They used to do a version of Paint It Black with violin intro

Yup.  Bass, piano, violin, guitar - quite the talent.  Slade's own Paul McCartney.

Jules

East of Eden - Dave Arbus - also played on Who's Next.  And I think Graeme Smith(?) from String Driven Thing played in Van Def Graff Generator at one time.

Magma certainly had Didier Lockwood on violin - even Gong had a (jazz) violin around time of the "Shamal" LP.

Papa John Creach from the Airplane, Greg Molina was it from Quicksilver...?

How about "High Tide", featuring Simon House, later with Hawkwind, Bowie and I believe Jude - they were about as rock music as you can get?

A bit later, but The Rolling Thunder Revue had Scarlett Rivera. And she was on Desire. "Pistol shots ring out on a bar room night......................"

And that album influenced Mike Scott to find Steve Wickham, The Waterboys' fiddling superstar.

Jules

Very cynical, and definitely not true for my ears.

You don't have to imagine it: here I am. Don't take that wrong, though---I love Lowell's work. But I also love what they've done since then. Shaun Murphy is actually the one I miss the most.

100% agree!

All the excellent Little Feat records since 1986 would tend to contradict that, I think. ;) Part of it, I freely admit is that I dislike, for the most part, nostalgia. And, yes, I love "truck Stop Girl." I like it when the current Little feat line up does it, too. :) "Nine" is amazing. But if I HAD to pick my all time favorite Fairport record (an unenviable task!), I would go with "Jewel in the Crown."

I soooo disagree with this.  Little Feat are a magnificent band and still well within their rights to trade on the illustrious name...

I hadn't made that connection but it makes perfect sense when you think of it. Scarlett's sound was pretty different for a chart album if I remember rightly.

cynical ? maybe,  but triue for many other people's ears. I, too, always look forward to FC's next record in the hope they will record something that will bear some comparison to the output of the first 12 years, so far i've been waiting in vain but I live in hope if i die in despair

Desire had a beautiful sound.  Dylan's most musical album, to my mind.

Jules

I've got a shoulder that goes into spasm twice an hour and it's excruciating, what's more, Jim just hurt it more by making me laugh with his post there.

However, this. I love Desire, I'm not sure what "most musical" means, but it's a great listen.

Dylan's melodies are very rich and tuneful on that record.  Plus the combination of vocal, guitar, fiddle, bass and drums sounds so right.  Plus the production is clear and vibrant.  That's sort of what I meant by "musical".

Jules

it was "most" I was having trouble with. I think once he plugged in and started adding layers his stuff became very "musical" in the way you describe, but I also love the drive and the immediacy of just him and the guitar.

And although I enjoy others singing his songs, I can't really imagine anyone else singing something like Idiot Wind or Visions of Joanna with the same impact.

I think he/they got it bang on, on both Blood On The Tracks and Desire.

Earlier albums with other musicians, despite their fine qualities, are often inspired, or rockin', or whatever else, but I wouldn't necessarily over-praise their musicality.

Jules

 It looks like I've missed some interesting posts while I was off getting a laptop transplant.
I was happy with the change of direction after L&L, in fact Full House and Angel Delight are two of my favourite Fairport albums.
The same with the Byrds, I can listen and enjoy anything they produced.   I still wish that I had gone to see them at the Lincoln Folk Festival in 1971.
As for Little Feat, I do prefer the Lowell George era, but I'll listen to anything that they bring out.  I managed to get some autographs in a Neon Park book of his artwork at Cropredy.  It was one of my all time wishes to see them play there, pity it was such a sad occasion.  
I'm also a PPL fan and love electric violins. It looks like I will have to look out for some Seatrain and High Tide CD's.  Check out albums by the U.S.group The Fourth Way, I used to have Werewolf on vinyl.    P.S. I've just remembered The Holy Modal Rounders and The Insect Trust,  It looks like Amazon is going to see some business quite soon.  

I didn't say the Paul and Bill band sucked.  I like them fine and have seen them several times over the years.  I just don't think there can be a Little Feat without the Big Toe.  Silly opinion? Sure, fine!  :)

BTW: The Byrds are one of my top three favorite bands - ever.  I do prefer the Hillman era stuff over the Clarence-Parsons albums, but I still really like those later ones as well.......except Byrdmaniax - I draw the line on that one.

And who are the other two?

(Love the mention of Freewheelin' Franklin in your signature, by the way! Gosh, that takes me back! Though I was always a Phineas fan myself ....)

The Dead and Fairport (extended family included)   :)

I even quite like Byrdmaniax!  At least four superb songs on there (Kathleen's Song, Pale Blue, Jamaica Say You Will, and Absolute Happiness).

Jules

Mahavishnu Orchestra (J-L Ponty), Soft Machine (can't remember who that was), East of Eden (Dave Arbus), Family (Ric Grech - who is also on the Fairport Heyday CD), It's a Beautiful Day (David LaFlamme), Flock (Jerry Goodman), John Mayall's Bluesbreakers (Sugar Cane Harris), Jefferson Airplane (Papa John Creech). Didn't Rick Danko play fiddle in The Band?

soft machine was our very own Ric

Ah the Dead! How I love them! Being on this side of the pond, I had thought I would never see them. But fortunately, I did, just the once, five years before Garcia's demise. The gig really sticks in my mind because it was utterly unlike any other concert I've ever seen.

Didn't The Wombles have a fiddle player in 'Remember You're a Womble'? ;D

Yeah, someone dropped the ball on that one. "Untitled" is by far my favorite Byrds record, though.

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I even quite like Byrdmaniax!  At least four superb songs on there (Kathleen's Song, Pale Blue, Jamaica Say You Will, and Absolute Happiness).

Jules
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Great songs---but the production is---disturbing to my ears. :)

I think it's fine.  The strings work on those songs.  Some of the others are....less successful.

Jules

Yes. I think he posts on this board sometimes.  ;) ;D

Paul

My little joke, Jim.

So to bring this all round again:

Bands that last a long time have fans who have a hard time moving on and accepting growth or difference, fans that find it hard to be critical and fans who will wait for the next recording with hope, what they hope for may be different though.

Some bands have violin players in the band and some of those bands are not completely human.

Dylan has been musical in the past.

Fairport Convention have managed to survive Liege and Lief, it still continues to cause controversy even on forums associated with that music, looks like we are all okay then.

Back on topic please.

Neil

soz