TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

Mike Scott has been hoping to do a Fisherman's Blues box set.  New hopes that this will become a reality today.  Check out this twitter post from Mike:-

"Working on forthcoming multi-CD "Fisherman's Box" set & came across the holy grail of Waterboys outtakes - a complete Born To Be Together"

 :D

Jules

How many editions of this (i must say great) album do I need to buy, from the original vinyl, I thinkI have lost count. Probably end up with this one, oh well.

Mike's hoping to do a multi-CD box, the definitive version of the complete sessions.  It'll be worth it IMO.

Jules

I missed out on the 2 cd version which came out a few years ago and have not been able to track it down at a sensible price since, so I'm looking forward to seeing what this release will include.

Wish they'd told me all those years ago that I'd still be planning to spend more money on these recordings - but I probably shall

Right time, right place, right songs - a little piece of historical musical brilliance...............

Amen to that, fella.

Jules

I was fortunate enough to pick this up when it first came out.  I had it originally on cassette and had been meaning to upgrade to CD.  When I heard about the two CD version coming out, I waited and picked it up.

It is probably one of my favorite albums of all time, but I don't know if I'll pick up the box-set of it.  That being said, probably of all the albums out there, this is probably the one that deserves to have have the box-set treatment.  I don't usually play the second CD all that much; it's good, but I usually just listen to the original album.  If there were some live material from the time period, I'd be interested in hearing that.

I believe that both Glasgow Barrowlands gigs from 1989 were recorded professionally.  I wouldn't be surprised if this stuff comes out eventually.

A handful of 1986 concerts were also recorded for radio broadcast - the semi-legit Live Adventures Of The Waterboys takes in Glasto 1986 and others.  You should still be able to pick up a copy on eBay or similar.

Jules

£148.95 on Amazon !!!

Holy cow!  I guess that's what happens when a little label goes out of business.   :(

Jules

Sigh..my 4th time round looming!  What else studio-wise is there beyond the 2CD reissue plus the Too Close to Heaven and Secret Advetures of the Waterboys sets, plus the couple of outtakes revived for the Lightning studio album?  A tour performing the whole of FB would be welcome..especially this side of the world.

There's tons of stuff.  They did 3 years worth of sessions for Fisherman's Blues alone:-

http://www.mikescottwaterboys.com/waterboys-discs.php?releaseid=5&releasepageid=19

They're in Australia now for their first ever tour down there.  I think USA may be soon.

Jules

More from Mike:-

"Great editing day on Waterboys FISHERMAN'S BOX. I worked on Saints & Angels, On My Way To Tara and BP's Bathtub Boogie. Release later 2013."

And:-

"It'll be 7 CDs."

 ;D

Jules

Bring it on!

Latest from Mike:-

"About to scale the dark tower, the Barad Dur, of Fisherman's Blues outtakes: the 22 minute version of Higherbound, unlistened to since 1987."

I cannot wait for this!

Jules

Latest regarding what the box will contain:-

"6 full discs chronologically through the sessions. 7th disc Fisherman's Roots - originals of old gospel, country, trad etc"

Jules

The Waterboys' Fisherman's Box tracklisting unveiled:-

http://www.uncut.co.uk/the-waterboys-unveil-fishermans-box-tracklisting-news

Jules

Looks like another one to add to the shopping list.
Don't these people realise I'm a poor civil servant who hasn't had a pay rise in years!

I wonder how many of these tracks have already been released with the 2 disc set, Too Close to Heaven, 2 disc Room to Roam etc?

The band played a fantastic set at the Vancouver folkfest last night..more to come once I get my photos in order..

All of the original Fisherman's Blues album, along with the tracks from the bonus disc on the 'deluxe' version, and the Too Close To Heaven tracks will be included.  None of the tracks from the 'deluxe' Room To Roam should be included.

Jules

Pic from the Vancouver folk-fest..

[Photo over 400 days old. Removed by Admin.]

Pic 2

[Photo over 400 days old. Removed by Admin.]

Latest from Mike Scott on Twitter:-

Cover of forthcoming Fisherman's Box boxed set. Six CDs of all the music from the Fisherman's Blues session… http://tmblr.co/Z1RJiqscc_dP

Jules

Now available for pre-order, at a very reasonable price:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00EQK5OG0/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Jules

Very reasonable price indeed! Ordered.  [;-)

Ditto.

Cheap as chips

There is a more expensive option, but as far as I can tell, all you get is a reproduction of the original LP (already got it), and some nice prints.

If I'm wrong, Amazon will always let you change your mind....

Jules

According to the Amazon details the £50 box has 19 discs. What is that all about?

Sorry to double post but have found more. 7 CDs and 12 12" vinyls. So presumably the whole set duplicated on LP, though I am not sure what the extra CD is.

7 CDs & 12 (Twelve!) 12 inch discs. WTF?
The set was originally billed as having 7 CDs with the seventh being a "Roots of....." With some of the stuff that inspired Mike Scott. £50 is still cheap for that if you want the Vinyl though.

Ah, so you only get the 7th CD in the big box?

I don't think that 12 x vinyl listing can be right though.

Jules

Sounds about right to me if they are duplicating the contents of the CDs over vinyl albums, given the comparative capacities of the two formats and especially if they are throwing in a replica vinyl edition of the original album.

Having said that, £50 would be cheap for 12 vinyl albums in this day and age so perhaps Amazon have got it wrong and it should say 9 discs comprising 7 CDs and 2 x vinyl. Seems more likely doesn't it.

Mike has just informed me that it is just the one 12" vinyl record in the deluxe set, so Amazon have made a mistake.

Jules

Full tracklisting and confirmation of just what's in which version:-

http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/the-waterboys-fishermans-box-details-of-6cd-and-7cdlp-sets/#more-20929

Jules

Box set pre-ordered and tickets booked for the gig in Bexhill in December :)

Uncut preview of Fisherman's Box:-

http://www.uncut.co.uk/blog/wild-mercury-sound/the-waterboys-fishermans-box

Jules

I find myself in a bit of a quandary. Fisherman's Blues & Room To Roam are the only Waterboys albums I own. However I am going to see the FB tour gig in Guildford in December and I have ordered the Fisherman's Box so I am now thinking that I need to fill in the gaps. I presume the first three albums are all essential? I know they have a very different sound to FB & RTR. I am familiar with Dream Harder. Do I need to delve any deeper?

I would say Fisherman's Blues and Room To Roam are the most essential albums.  After that, the hardcore Waterperson would direct you to This Is The Sea, and A Pagan Place in particular (both now expanded).

"Best of the rest" award, in my book, is last year's An Appointment With Mr Yeats.

After that, well, Fisherman's Box will render Too Close To Heaven largely superfluous (though the new release will omit most of the overdubbing from that set), but you might want to check out the meditative charms of Universal Hall, or the more in-yer-face A Rock In The Weary Land.

Jules

I'd have "This is the Sea" as more essential than "Room to Roam"..Horses for courses etc, but song for song "This is the Sea" is the stronger album..

It certainly is....if you're a pop music fan.  But I never cared for the production sound on those first three LPs.  So speaking as a folk-rocker, it's all about the fiddles and whistles etc for me (and possibly Gub).

Jules

I wouldn't call This is the Sea a "pop" album in the One Direction etc sense of the word.  Granted "Whole of the Moon" is poppy, but the track This is the Sea neatly prefaces the more folky sound of FB and RTR.  "Old England", "Spirit", "Medicine Bow"..classics every one of them... I never really noticed any production problems (have the vinyl and the reissue 2 CD set), but perhaps my hearing has been damaged beyond repair with all the small club loud band gigs of years gone by!

like Catty i would have "this is the sea " before "room to roam"

God, no, neither would I.  Pop hasn't always been a dirty word, you know.  Remember The Beatles?  A fine pop group.



No, no problems.  It's just that the slightly 'wall-of-sound' sheen of those records isn't to my own personal taste.  Love the songs though.  Whole Of The Moon is still arguably the best song Scott ever wrote, and Old England and the title track are wonderful.  I just prefer them done live.

Jules

I'm sure most people would, really.

Jules

Picture of deluxe version of Fisherman's Box, plus tracklisting for 7th CD:-

http://www.superdeluxeedition.com/news/the-waterboys-fishermans-box-new-photo-and-bonus-disc-details/

Jules

I guess that is right in as much as I picked up Fisherman's Blues while I was browsing in a branch of HMV the week that it was released. It was playing over the speakers and I had to ask what it was because I liked it immediately. I bought it there and then but I did already know and like The Whole Of The Moon so I am not averse to the earlier sound. Standing in the shop listening to it though, I would never have made the connection.

I have just noticed that this has popped into my Amazon Cloud Player for download today.  :)

I didn't think it was out for another week or two.

On the downside, I still have 8 discs of John Martyn to get through. Will this torment never end?  ;D

Good news!  Presumably mine will be there too!   :D

Jules



Edit: It is!

Hey, so what would prevent someone from grabbing the download for free and then cancelling the order?

It's in the small print somewhere,they'd bill you for it.I read that only yesterday,funnily enough.

Good, because otherwise early presents like this would soon stop!

Jules

all downloaded and wallowing in its wonderfulness 8) ;D
isnt autorip just the best thing ever :D

I've given in...  :)

Quite right too!   :)

Jules

Physical CD version of Fisherman's Box delayed until mid November.   :(

Jules

Dont care

Oh I admit that having the MP3s helps the pain, but I want to read the liner notes!

Jules

Going away next week so have compiled an 80 minute CD of tracks from Fisherman's Box that I'm not so familiar with.  I performed a little surgery. Higherbound even more edited down now, losing first break and repeat of 1st verse. Minor edits elsewhere too.

Tracklist: Stranger To Me/Born To Be Together/Wayward Wind/Rimbaud Blues/Will You Ever Be My Friend?/Too Close To Heaven (shorter take)/Prettiest Girl In Church/Maggie/Ain't Too Hot For Cleanhead/Meet You In Heaven Again/Higherbound/Killing My Heart (country)/Has Anybody Here Seen Hank? (alt take)/Home In The Meadow/Strange Boat-Good Ship Sirius/On My Way To Tara/Twa Recruitin' Sergeants/Puck Fair/In Search Of A Rose/Good Ship Sirius set of jigs

Has to be said though that the mastering on the MP3 files was poor.  Brickwalling to the max.  I'm praying the CDs don't suffer the same fate.

Jules

I was wondering where it had got to.

I listened to about a third of it yesterday on a journey home from Brum. There is some great stuff on there but I know what you mean about the Mp3 mastering. I think I will rip the CDs when they arrive and replace the downloaded files. What a contrast with the John Martyn box, the Mp3s of which sound excellent to my ears.

Wet weather tomorrow and a day at home so an excellent opportunity to work my way through the rest of it. I need to do that before Tommy, Bob & the Fabs arrive in November!

I am definitely going to have to slow down my music consumption.  ::)

I totally agree - the mastering for the John Martyn MP3s was about as good as you can get.  The state of the ones for the Waterboys doesn't fill me with confidence for the sound of the CD version.  I hope I'm wrong, but I fear it'll be a sonic hell.  Harsh and distorted.  I wish "brickwalling" could be outlawed.

I've done my best to tone down the excesses of the rotten mastering on my compilation, but there's only so much I can do.   :(

Jules

2 things : 1:perhaps the original tapes aren't really top notch quality so when converted to Mp3 the quality suffers and 2:what is brickwalling when its at home?

Everything louder than everything else so all of the sonic dynamics are wiped out because it is all limited equally and arbitrarily at the top end. Quiet becomes loud. Loud is compressed to the same volume. It is exhausting to listen to after a while in its worst examples.

1. The tapes are fine...but maybe they didn't use the actual tapes.

2. Very heavy compression.  When you see the waveforms for the music, they have a uniform almost box-like appearance, with little natural dynamics for loud and quiet passages.  They resemble brick walls.  See here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Jules

Fair enough, thanks for the info Jules

It seems in Germany the box was not delayed. Mine was sent today.

btw, if the downloaded mp3 don't sound good, I doubt it will be any better if you rip them yourself...

Regular version, or Deluxe?  My understanding is that all copies of the Deluxe are going out this week, but that the 6 disc version is delayed due to unexpected high demand.

Jules

normal version

Lucky man!   :P

Jules

yes, but we in germany have them not in the cloud already.

In Britain always we are in the clouds, Alexander.   ;)

Jules

What does it sound like?

Normal?   ;D

I don't think he has it yet, Gub.  It's in transit, I believe.

Jules

Righto.

Not likely to be in transit.Could be in Crafter.

https://www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk/range/crafter/crafter-panel-van/

FB friends of mine are sharing pics of the luxury box... I'm rather concerned now...haven't listened to the mp3's yet and might leave it that way now.  Hope it (the box) doesn't sound as awful as seems to be suggested on here...

God, me too.  This is the most important music of all to me, and I'd hate for it to suffer because the mastering has been given short shrift.  Anyway, let's wait and see.  I feel bad now if I've punctured any enthusiasm.  I mean, the songs are great!

Jules

Presumably this is being talked about in Waterboys online circles...?  Is there a judgement out there on the interweb yet?

No, I think I'm the first to mention it.

Jules

As it (the box set) is already actually out there...and noone else is mentioning it, I may chose to break the habit of a lifetime and be optimistic then.

ps and very cross with you...  :)

Box arrived today and sadly I have to say, that this is one if the worst sounding/loudest/brightest cds I have ever bought, only topped my the last ZZ Top.

No need to re-rip, if you have the amazon autorips. They can't be worse. It distorts even on my big stereo. I don't want to know how this sounds on the iPod...

My old muddy bootlegs with the wrong azimuth sound better that this s**t.

Oh dear. I was listening on my hi fi today and thought it sounded less brittle than on my Ipod yesterday but there was still definite distortion on a couple of tracks as if they had just been mastered too loud. Hmmm. May have to consider my options here before the box is dispatched.

add to my previous post: aggresive denoising. oh god, oh god, everything they could do wrong they did do wrong....

Oh dear.

I'm still having it.  This is probably the only chance we'll ever have to hear this stuff.  But I'm going to have to remaster it as best I can using audio editing software.

I really want Mike to know about these issues, but I don't want to break his heart, you know?   :(

Jules

I don't think you will get satisfactory results. I record my own music and use Nuendo and Wavelab nearly daily, but you cant undo that kind of brickwalling.

Alex

I think he would want to know. It begs the question about who made the mastering decisions. Presumably not him so what on earth is the point of doing it?

I'm interested in hearing it now just to hear what a "brickwalled" album sounds like.

Like Jim, this is all new to me. Perhaps my ears have already been damaged too much to notice  :)

Bollox.

Sounds like Steve Wilson's services are required!

I absolutely refuse to believe it has hit the market without him exercising control over the mastering.  He must have signed it off.

Never heard of Brickwalling before, started looking for clips and saw there are many, here are a couple, never realised it could be as bad as that. I had always assumed remastering was to enhance the sound. I am glad I never replaced my lp's for cd's.

http://shelf3d.com/Videos/3Gmex_4hreQ

http://shelf3d.com/Videos/A64rlrlPGV4

Replacing lps for cds has nothing to do with this problem. These clips are talking about mastering applied to new music, in order to make the tracks be as loud (or louder) on the radio as those from other artists.

The conversion of analog to digital has its own problems depending on the sampling rate used, but since they're not really worried about radio play, the remastering engineers are less likely to apply the type of sound compression illustrated in those clips, whose premise is, "what if the music was being mastered today in the interests of promoting airplay?"

Don't be fooled into thinking it's always like this.  Many CD remasters are superb.  It depends upon the mastering, and the engineers doing it.

Jules

Its not just new music. Its nearly all of the new Remasters of old CDs that come out on the regular labels in the last 10 years.

So it is just bad engineering, why do they think it is better, the examples I heard where awful, all depth is lost and it takes the life out of it.

Compressed music is often preferred in cars and on ipods etc where outside noise drowns out quiet passages hence their boosting on remastered tracks. I would settle for fiddling with the dynamic range on MP3 if they left the original recordings more or less unchanged. Some remasters are excellent eg Buddy Holly From The Original Masters but all too many are not. As more and more people use ipods as their only musical source/reference I fear the compressed sound will be regarded as "normal" and we are set for a compressed downward trend.
Has anyone heard the Fisherman's Blues CDs, are they as compressed as the MP3 or better?

The original CD from 1987 is good. If you mean the box: Im only takling about the CDs as we in germany have not got the mp3s.

I'm pretty sure those clips were deliberately exaggerated to help make the point. I can't imagine an engineer actually compressing to that point ... at least, I hope not.
And again, it's not "bad" engineering ... it's intentional due to producers thinking it will help sell product.

In the meantime I have read a bit about it and it is clear that the compression is done for a purpose but not everybody is happy with the result.

i got another email from amazon yesterday informing me that it's been delayed yet further until approx 21-23rd Nov

Yes, me too. I wonder if this is anything to do with the complaints about the mastering of the Mp3 files & boxes that have already been sent out in Europe? Is there any chance they have decided to go back and re-do it?

I don't think so...

No chance.  It's just down to high demand.  It'd be set back much further for a full remastering job.

Jules

I have a feeling I've seen some pictures of the waveforms for these recordings which show the brickwalling, but can't seem to find them now.  Have I imagined them?

I've not seem them online, only on my laptop.  I did send a reply to Jim with a link which showed some generic examples of brickwalling, but not this release in particular.

Jules

Just got a 'despatched' email from Am*z*n.

And arrived.  I'm almost too scared to listen...

First two discs sound fine to me,bearing in mind the nature of some of the recordings. Maybe my ears are not as discerning some.  :)

I've skim listened to bits off the first 3 and there's nothing too terrifying to these ears so far...will give it full attention in due course.

Mine is "not despatched yet"
Grrrrrrrrrr

Arrived, but handed straight to Santa!

Is he going to remaster it?   ;)

Jules

Oh,so that's what an SACD is.Santa Administered Compact Disc.I did wonder.

;D ;D ;D

Bravo  :D

Just purchased this for the ridiculously good price of £20.36 from Amazon. One second later the MP3 version was in CloudPlayer and one second after that I was listening to it. Sometimes technology scares me!

I am now informed that it has been despatched
Phew

And relax, it arrived 30 minutes ago ;D
And was immediately handed over for father Christmas to give it me next month >:(

Thank Amazon for autorip ::)

Fantastic Waterboys' Fisherman's Blues-era reunion clips from last night!  Loads of 'em!:-

https://www.youtube.com/user/cuostile/videos?shelf_id=2&view=0&sort=dd

Jules

Excellent...thanks  :)

Copy arrived courtesy of youngest brother..look forward to the six hours' free time to listen to this!

Entertaining interview with The Waterboys in The Guardian.  I particularly like Steve's story about the gay chef:-

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/dec/05/waterboys-irish-roots-fishermans-box-mike-scott

Jules

Yes have just read that. In the sleeve notes to the box Mike says that the full story is in his book.

It is, but I enjoyed Steve's angle on it.

Jules

I refuse to read either until Anto and Trevor put their versions in print

Anto actually does get a quote in during the interview.

Jules

"Fisherman's Box is out now on PLG in six-CD and an eight-CD deluxe version.".  Really?

No.

Jules

I see the details of the new box celebrating the Room To Roam era are now out.

Hilariously Amazon UK want £30 more for the big box then the German supplier who I have ordered from. It was a no brainer. Amazon really aren't doing themselves any favours these days.

https://superdeluxeedition.com/news/the-waterboys-the-magnificent-seven-5cddvd-box-set/

There seems to be a real split in the box set market at the moment...you've got mega boxes like the VdGG and Caravan sets which work out at about £5 a disc and you've got things like the Beach Boys and this which are £15+ a disc for something much much smaller.  It doesn't look like value to me, much as I want it.

Well, I have pre-ordered the big box for just over £60 which doesn't seem bad to me for 5 CDs, a DVD and a substantial book but there is also a budget clamshell version with all the CDs and the DVD but no book for about £35 or less which seems more than reasonable, a shade over £5 per disc as you say.

And that German supplier is..?

Jules

jpc.de

But surely you'll get stung for import VAT charges?

My understanding is not if the value of the consignment (excluding delivery charges) is less than £135.

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/online-shopping-do-i-have-to-pay-vat-import-and-handling-costs-ajPOC6A5brEA

The difficulty comes in Royal Mail determining correctly the difference between "Gifts" and "Goods".  In my experience they often get this wrong and try and add 20% import VAT to things even though they've been bought from a commercial seller. The appeals process is a nightmare.  I've stopped buying anything from abroad.  The idiots in power must love me...

It is surely less likely that any given package is a gift than a purchase. Also I would be very surprised if it finds itself in the hands of Royal Mail Most of these suppliers use couriers and Deutsche Post are pretty on the ball. Amazon, from whose EU outlets I also have some items ordered, use their own logistics company so I have little to no fear about charges. It might be different if I was ordering from Ebay or similar.

Re ; The Waterboys Magnificent Seven box set and Book.  Does anyone know -
Does the £40 book come with the, somewhat less than reasonably priced, box set@£90+?😳😵

I'm a bit puzzled at the pricing of this set since the 6 cd "Fishermens Box" set came in at under £20😀😎🙋

This may answer your query:  :)

https://superdeluxeedition.com/news/the-waterboys-the-magnificent-seven-5cddvd-box-set/

Gawdbless ya, Gun'nor

Looks like Steve has now left the band (all very nicely though, thankfully)... https://mikescottwaterboys.com/

I'm gutted. As I was the first time he left in 1990. He's right though - he's become a sort of heritage adjunct to the latest version of the band, and it must be frustrating for him. For me personally, I just can't see myself wanting t attend a Waterboys show without Steve being there. So I'm very saddened by the news.

Incidentally, today would have been my late partner Gill's birthday. She'd have felt much the same as I do.

Jules

Big virtual hug for yer, Jules...

Cheers, Paul.

Jules

On reading the article I see that the band are playing the Middlewich festival this year. We usually go on the Saturday, which is free, one year we got Merry Hell, Headsticks, Moulettes, and the Men They Couldn't Hang which was amazing. The Waterboys, however, are on the Friday. Looks a bit steep at £40 but it's not a big field.

Bloody anniversaries.  Sometimes I genuinely think it's best to just hide the bloody calendars.  Shove on the box set and play it loudly.  I hope the day goes well for you, Jules.

I think you're right. And I have been. And I got through it. Cheers, David.

Jules