TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

As was mentioned a couple of months ago the idea is to compile an all new 'History of Fairport Convention' virtual CD, made up of tracks from across the decades.

All we need is a plan of how to do it.
I was thinking of splitting the the albums into 'eras' and then having a vote/debate to select tracks from each of those.

Firstly does this look like a good list to start with:

Fairport Convention	What We Did on Our Holidays	Unhalfbricking	Liege & Lief	Full House
Angel Delight	Babbacombe Lee	Rosie	Nine	Rising for the Moon
Gottle O'Geer	The Bonny Bunch of Roses	Tipplers Tales	Gladys' Leap	Expletive Delighted!
Heyday	In Real Time: Live '87	Red & Gold	The Five Seasons	Jewel in the Crown
Old New Borrowed Blue	Who Knows Where the Time Goes?	The Wood and the Wire	XXXV	Over the Next Hill
Sense of Occasion	Festival Bell	By Popular Request	Myths and Heroes

Morning Colin.
For once a serious comment.
I like this idea.
However I think you may have to define the length of a new History Of.
12tracks?
A double?
A double with one cd pre 85 and one post.?

Personally Sloth, Matty, Sailors Life, WKWTTTG would have to be there cos they define a genre but others would disagree!!!
If it was A 12 track album, could you just ask people for their 12, favourite / most influential, songs?
However to be a true history it should include later albums, so you may need to create a specific vote.
When Fairports did by Popular request, it was by vote and they were pleased to get votes for later songs so, ' By Popular Request' may already be the new History Of'?

Colin, would it be possible to select two, three or four albums every week and to let people vote for the tracks they like of each album?
It would be interesting to see how the outcome will be, to see the order of preference for the songs of each album.
I would also suggest to include songs that were recorded at the same time but did not make it to the albums.

I would say let's fill up one (or possibly two) 80 minute CDs.

In terms of eras, I would move Heyday to the era of the recordings rather than the release date.  It would be out of step in terms of chronology to have, say, Suzanne in the middle of the 80s stuff.

Jules

Taking one track from each album, which I think would be fair - if this is a history of, rather than the best of or an impossible greatest hits - would give us 29 tracks. A single CD wouldn't be enough. So at least a double.
But then some albums would throw up more than one song. I'd say a triple CD is needed.
Maybe a four disc box. (Modestly priced with a nice booklet  ;) .)
 

Sorry Colin. When I first looked at this I read down rather than across! Eras looks fine.

Jules is right about Heyday - I guess it should be between Holidays and Unhalfbricking.

Specific eras are difficult because they blend into each other.

It would be easiest to go album by album and discuss the essential tracks from each - some may contain two, three or more. It's inevitable that there will be more tracks from the earlier six or seven albums and fewer from the last twenty or so. And then prune them down to fit, taking track times into account to squeeze as near to 79.59 mins as poss.  

I agree that it needs to be a 3 or 4 disc set at this point.

At the risk of confusing matters, can I suggest excluding In Real Time & By Popular Request? They are what they are but they don't add anything to the canon.

Also, does there need to be an option for people to nominate other officially released tracks that did not appear on the original studio albums? Now Be Thankful & Fiddlestix for example. In my case the live version of I Wandered By A Brookside from the 1992 Cropredy album would make my personal list but the anodyne studio version from a decade or so later would not. Just offered as "for instance". There are also other tunes on the live albums for which no studio version exists and which should not be overlooked. Battle of the Somme for example.

Al, there are I think not that many tracks who did not make it to the albums, I was thinking about songs like Sir Patricks Spens sung by Sandy Denny which did not make it to Liege and Lief and Poor Will. I think they should be considered.

That wasn't a strict list and not really in order.
It will be easiest to argue about what's in or out, one era at a time.

Anybody care to suggest a list of eras?

eg:
Fairport Convention (on it's own)
WWDOOH & UHB
L&L, FH & AD

etc.....

But there are a few and they are important ones. The two I have mentioned. Sir B Mckenzie is another. The Ballad of Easy Rider and a goodly number of songs that only exist on live albums for which there are no officially released studio recordings.

67 - 69 The "classic" era.
70 - 79 The revolving door.
85 - 96 The Maart era
97 - Present  The Leslie era/current line up.

I know there are variatons in length but they equate to specific key moments in history and there was a lot of output in those first three years.

Having said that, the last two eras are squeezed into a disc and a half of my 4 disc anthology!

Agreed. Added to which I think there are a few songs where the live performance is better than on the original album. Banks of the Sweet Primroses and Journeymans Grace are examples IMHO. This 2 (or 3 or 4) CD notional box needs a few excellent live performances to leaven the mix. Isn't FC's reputation to a fair extent as a live band?

I agree and I think these are the eras that most people think of when it comes to Fairport, with, of course, some overlaps - but that's going to be inevitable.

Era's are a good idea although I would end classic with Full House and not '69. Thompson leaving is the end of that classic period in my mind. This is what I hoped the FreeReed box would be but they chose a different thematic approach.

Also maybe a bonus disc of definitive live versions, with nothing live on the other discs.

I agree with Gub's era list.  The difference between Full House and Angel Delight is one man MIA.  The difference between Liege & Lief and Full House is much more apparent.

Jules

 
Rare I disagree with 'my learned colleague' Al but I would argue for keeping In Real Time. I think particularly here in the U.S. In Real Time was particularly important in highlighting Fairport, especially as part of their (at the time) 20th anniversary. Yes it is a 'false' item but I still regard it as one of my favorite albums and I certainly feel a case can be made for several of the songs-Reynard, Widow Of Westmorland, Close To The Wind, or maybe even MOTL. After all, that is the arrangement of the song that has been in place since.

Maybe first of all we nominate the songs, then the final decision will be which version.
Also as well as eras. there are a few albums that could stand alone.

All ideas welcome.  

I'm with Robert. In Real Time was the first, and for some time the only, FC album I'd heard, and subsequently bought. I had no idea it wasn't live and it has some of my favourite versions of some of their most popular songs. I'd like to see it in.

Other than that though, I'll probably stay out of this thread. I took a lot of stick for Strictly FC and I don't fancy any more.

Cheery-bye Talkawhilers - enjoy your arguments  :)

Brij, for strictly, please seriously understand it was never real stick. We were playing a game. You were a judge. Genuinely no malice at all. Really sorry if you felt that and any of it came from me.
I was always only playing the game, in jest and I would  be mortified if I thought I had upset you.

I think it is better to be able to vote for all the songs on an album, there maybe some surprises as which will end in the top three.

Nobody in particular Dave, I just don't feel up to justifying my opinions at the moment. I know some on this board love a good old on-line set-to, but I only paid for a 10 minute argument so my time is up   ;D    I might stick my oar in every now and then!!

Good!

Still thinking album by album is a better approach than eras - plus sundries.
When it comes to track selection you'll end up having to weigh up the relative importance of The Lobster to Flatback Caper, or whatever.
Easier ( and more balanced) to choose from ten tracks at a time than ten albums (and a hundred songs).
I'd also suggest a limit of three, four at most, songs per album.

Take L and L for example....I'd choose Tam Lin, Crazy Man Michael and Lark medley. Matty will be a given on the final thing, but I suspect most of us would go for metal Matty from the anniversary Cropredy album with Meet On The Ledge as the final track - origibal vesion.

Go for album by album...nominate tracks, choose the most popular three with a couple of reserves maybe, then move on to the next album. Some albums will require more discussion - Rosie will maybe be an easy one - the title track and Bring 'Em Down ?

Then, when you've got your list sorted, you have to fit 'em on to a CD or four, really.

But it's a history of Fairport....three token Chris era songs won't achieve that, one song at least per album, maximum three, will.

Apologies...The Plainsman from Rosie...and original rather than origibal. I'm rushing to work where I left my glasses, hence the mistakes.

I can dig that.  Maybe four tracks for landmark albums.  And let's not forget singles - Now Be Thankful has to be on there!  Maybe if we deal with the expanded CD versions of the albums rather than the original LPs we'd be more mindful of stray tracks like this?

Jules

Yes, that is what I was more or less suggesting and yes Now be thankful is a fantastic song that should have a place on an anthology of Fairport.

Fiddlestix and Sir B Pict Grooving In a Cave With Small Furry Animals too.

I wouldn't place either in the essential category.

Jules

Oh, I definitely would with Fiddlestix; the version with the orchestra. Sir B remains a staple of the live set.

I have already compiled my 4 disc set, pretty much complying with the various rules being suggested above. I shall reveal it somewhere somehow but presumably it would be inappropriate to do so here and now as it would pre-empt the exercise.

Oh , I am trying to stay out if this.........
But......
We are already giving personal opinions of what would be on our History of.
We could all do it. They would all be different, eg, I happen to hate Rosie, with a passion.
Colin needs a system to try and put an album together.
An album that when it is completed some people will disagree with.
People know , all too well, that my personal view would be skewed towards the early albums. I already have my own 'history of' on my mobile devices....... So how do we get something from all those albums on , max, 4 cd's?
One song from each album? That would show a history of but so much would be lost.
I think the existing History Of album, covers the early years and I'm including Crazy Man Michael. Add something from the first album and I think you probably have the first cd in our new history of.
You now have 3 cd's to cover 1970 to present.

I think there are a lot of things that factor in to this. I agree that Colin needs a system by which to derive the final list. I don't think, given the volume of available material that it can be done in less than 4 discs and I agree that the later years need to be fairly represented. "Fairly" is not the same as "equally "however. It would be churlish to suggest that much of this material has the same significance, the same place in many people's hearts, the same quality even as much of the earlier, more innovative work. For what it is worth, over the course of the 4 disc anthology that I have put together, the period from 67-70 takes up about a disc and a half. The period from 97 - 2015 takes up about a disc and a half. The other 75 minutes or so comprises everything in between. That seems about fair to me. It acknowledges the latter history of the band reasonably substantially without ascribing the same weight to it as the early years.

Something from the 'House Full' live album would be a cracking addition.  It's a superd document of the Full House line-up on great form...

Cheers,

Slippy
 8)

Yeah Al, I agree ,  however,it's a history of, should chronicle the full history whether we like the stuff or not.
On my personal History of, I have 2 songs after1997 and  my history also includes the Wounded Whale.!!!!!!

Yes, that is my point.



So does mine!  ;)

Yeah, I know. I was just agreeing!

Agreed.  Just not Yellow Bird, please!

Banks Of The Sweet Primroses or Staines Morris, every time!

Jules

Dave, the album or the song?

As live recordings differ sometimes a lot from the studio versions it maybe is an idea to compile a history of Fairport consisting only of live recordings.

The word Compendium was chosen carefully:
compendium, 1. a brief treatment or account of a subject, especially an extensive subject;

This idea wasn't to produce a 'best of'. What we want is a 'representative of' crossing the decades and then fit it all on one CD.

So please no falling outs because you don't like certain eras, they all have to be represented. No matter how good they are, there shouldn't be a heap of tracks from one popular album and yes some live versions are better than the studio recordings.

Ah. come on Col - we at least need a double!



It also, happily, sounds a bit like Convention.  I like the title a lot.

Jules

In that case I'm out. Can't be done, at least in my head.  ;D

The song.

My knee jerk reaction is to agree with you Al.........but I will try and give it some thought.
30 albums to be represented on a 14(?) track album. So 16 albums have to be ditched if we're only doing one song an album.
When the original vinyl version of History came out , there was conversation in the NME, that it didn't faithfully represent Fairport, e.g. Nothing from first album( yes I understand the contractural problems) and there were 3 tracks from Babbacombe Lee.
If it was impossible then to accuractly reflect a 6 album career on one album how on earth to do you reflect a 30 album career( I am using Colin's list above) on one album?
People think of me on here as deliberately argumentative, yes sometimes I throw in a hand grenade for fun but we need to find a logical way to help Colin do this.
We had our windows replaced yesterday. 2 fitters in their early 50's listening to Heart radio. So we talk music. They ask who I like . I mention Fairports. They had no idea who they were.
So imagine we are preparing a compendium for  someone who has never heard Fairports. This will be their Damascene moment! Sorry I couldn't leave out Crazy Man Michael cos we have to fit in Festival Bell (insert songs of choice). John Gaudie instead of Tam Lin?
Sorry Colin, I am starting to think it can't be done objectively.
Subjectively, for me, Holidays,unhalfbricking, Liege , full house and Babbacombe Lee are the most influential and genre defining and should have a large representation. A minimum of 10 tracks , leaving 4 tracks for the rest of the Cannon! Struggling!
I am not being negative Colin , let's make it work but at the risk of taking this too seriously , let's define our audience.
Most T / awhilers will know the majority of stuff so are we aimed at a younger audience and perhaps Fairport Virgins?
If you do eras it's effectively 3 songs an era.
The new listener would get a very skewed view of what Fairport were about.
Their memory has to be of a genre breaking band.

Mine too. My set is much the same as Al's, although not exactly the same tracks no doubt. Looking at the FC discography, a 4 disc set is ' a brief treatment or account of a subject '. You can't do it with one disc.  

The last time we had 'a bit of fun', right at the start there were several comments along the lines of 'why don't we just declare L&L the winner and have done with it?'

The whole idea here is that it's not a best of, so there will be discussions about other eras. Who knows, members who prefer more recent albums might feel that they can have a say.

The joy of modern technology is that mine changes on a daily basis!

Yep that was probably me.
Why would anybody prefer a more recent abum? ::) ;) ;D ;D

Just a thought. If this is aimed at the young and Fairport virgins, surely it has to be representative of the current line up and sound. It's no good filling it with tracks from previous eras, because when the target audience see the band or buy current albums they will be nothing like the compendium cd they have.

Remember this as Colin said is is not a best of CD.

When I bought History of in the 70s the band I then went to see and other LPs I bought were very similar to the taster album. I think we should only use tracks by the current line up. If the History of had had loads of tracks from the first album and this is what attracted me, I definitely wouldn't have been impressed with what they were then playing.

how about 3 cds from the 67-79 period and a blank so you can record your own choice from 85 to the present day, you might want to fill it up with side projects. ::)

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Maybe one man missing in action, I see it as the disappearance of the progressive nature of the music to a much more conventional sound, also the loss of a second lead instrument led to Swarb becoming safer musically while simultaneously more dominant in choice of songs and instrumentals, this was hastened by the loss of the better more adventurous songwriter.

Neil

I agree with much of this.....but then you went and used the word 'progressive' and I developed a twitchy eye and couldn't concentrate properly.   ;)

Yes, I know RT was a big deal in many ways, yet still FH seems a shorter step away from AD than from L&L to me.

Jules

Certainly the loss of a lead guitar player is noticeable but I am not sure I entirely agree with the first point. Surely Babbacombe Lee is musically adventurous and much of Nine too. It gets a little more formulaic after that, I'll grant you, notwithstanding the pyrotechnics of One More Chance.

😘 Sorry  Brij.
I am locked in to a discussion with an evangelical , Christian,creationist  pastor, in the states.
I'm an atheist. It's made me grumpy!

Er....why?

I'm with Brij.... I seriously DO NOT have the time this is likely to take out of my life...
- but the worm is already in there...

Oh dear - I feel for you. I've had similar discussions in the past. Heads and brick walls spring to mind!

The best bit is we/you haven't even decided on the format yet! That's before the arguments over whether Si Tu Dois Partir should be included (for - it's their only charting single, against - it's sh1te)  ;D  ;D

Just a thought. There's eras. But there's also musical styles. I couldn't imagine a 'Representative FC Compendium' without at least one Jigs and Reels. But I could imagine Lark in the Morning, Dirty Linen, Hens March , River Ash etc being outvoted individually by other more compelling material. Or as another example maybe there should be a couple of light hearted tracks. Maybe a bit of structuring should happen not just across eras but across genres too.

Well, as a civil servant, I'm sticking to the original brief  :P - 1 CD covering every recording line-up (I'm not counting Gottle as that particular line-up is nowhere to be found on the LP ! )so, here goes & you can all disagree with me ... 1) Time will show the wiser; 2) Fotheringay; 3) Who knows...; 4) Sailor's life; 5) Crazy Man Michael; 6) Walk awhile; 7) Banks of the River Ash; 8) Polly on the shore; 9) One more chance; 10) Widow of Westmoreland's daughter; 11) Meet on the Ledge (from "Farewell, Farewell"); 12) Hiring fair; 13) Red & Gold; 14) Big 3 Medley inc. Matty Groves (from "In Reel Time"); 15) John Gaudie; 16) Myths & Heroes. Somebody else will have to work out if that comes to less than 80 minutes if they can be bothered, but I'm quietly confident ...

Best idea yet.

A fair number of CD releases these days come with a 2 disk version and to get any real sense of the development of FC I there has to a reasonable sample of their output. Anything less than 2 disks wouldn’t be a fair representation of their output and history. The disks could then be split to show the different eras, say up to Tipplers on one, and from Glady’s onwards on t'other.  

Agreed.  Though my disc one would stretch a bit further to include that Fairport version of Sandy's It Suits Me Well from Swarb's Smiddyburn LP.

Jules

Having had comments about my contribution to the Strictly thread I think I will now do my best to keep myself out of this thread.
I think one album is an impossible task. There are so many permutations and everyone on here will suggest one!
Committee designing a horse produces a Camel ::) ;D ???

Addendum.
E.g Phil's list above is a completely reasonable compendium, it wouldn't be mine .

I hope this will continue.

I hope it continues too Ronald but I still think it as an impossible task.
If you look at Phil's list above he only has 2 tracks from the lineup of the band that has been together for 18 years.
He has cleverly, chosen old tracks, done by more recent line ups..I hope it continues and I will try and sit back and watch it unfold.

That's two too....oh, no, it's alright, I'll shup up...  :)

I hope there will be a poll to vote for the songs on each album, where you can vote for all the tracks you like, could be one or two or all, or none if you don't like the album at all.

I'm trying to work out a system that doesn't get too complex.
Although I am having problems getting over the concept of coming up with a representative selection, spread across the decades, rather than a best of.

Yes. This will be underway next month.
I'm still got a heap of cutting and pasting to do.

OK, personally I tend to agree with Hendo's "Camel" comment (great band 'though  :)) so, for the sake of simplicity, how about no contrived "mixing and matching" of people's "entries".   So, anyone would be able to make an "entry" and it only gets disqualified if it leaves out a line-up or exceeds 1 (or 2, if that is the consensus) CD's length. Then at a certain point - say, the end of May, that part of the game closes and then anyone can vote for any entry - provided it is not their own, of course !

If you haven't abandoned the eras idea, then I think it might be easier with a little more granularity. To a reasonable extent I think you can devise eras around key people at that time...

Dyble/Denny	Fairport ->	Leige and Lief
Thompson/Swarbrick	Full House ->	Babbacombe Lee
Donahue/Lucas	Rosie ->	Rising
Swarbrick/Nicol	Gottle ->	Tipplers
Sanders/Maart	Gladys ->	Old/New
Sanders/Leslie	Who Knows	->

3 CDs, Two eras per CD, but doesn't need to be equal numbers of tracks from each era?

Perfect!

Jules

I like it but I think the intention is to be one CD. Hence my 'camel' comment.

I love Camel. What's your favourite era - the one with Peter Bardens or with Jan Schelhaas?

I'm trying to avoid people going off in a huff because they can't stomach early tracks being excluded to include more recent ones.

So how about a double CD. The first 25 years and the second. Well roughly. The break being 'Red & Gold' <-> 'The Five Seasons'

I think some will only be interested in CD1, but there are also the 'youngsters'.

Well?

I can go for the double idea, but it's the wrong place to take the break.  It needs to pre and post original split to my mind.  The early years are more intense and more important.  That's true of any band with a long history, it's not me being partisan.  It's just the way it is.

Jules

Yeah, what Jules said...if you have a break, it has to be at the end of the 70's - it's two very distinct bands and careers.  It's not like the Beatles is it...a 2CD Stones compilation isn't going to split after Steel Wheels, is it?

I'd agree that 2 CDs has to be the way to go.  And I think splitting it between Farewell, Farewell and Gladys Leap is the logical place to do it.  

But I won't kick up a big fuss if you decide to do it differently - it's only a bit of fun, after all.

Double Cd is good. Natural break would be before and after Gladys Leap.
After 85" there have been 2 changes to the band line up. Before 85 there were 8,542.......ish.

Elbow? Pulp?😇😉

Two exceptions from the minor leagues.  Out of thousands.

Jules

I know big boy. The pedant in me just couldn't resist.😜😇😉

Radiohead? Thin Lizzy? Marvin Gaye? The Tremeloes? (...that's enough now - Ed.)

I think the other place you could logically take a split is after Rising. Up to then it seems to me that there was always a dream that they might become major players in the mainstream music scene, and after that there was a gradual acceptance that, OK, that's not going to happen, but maybe we can make a living in a smaller fishpool.

Interesting.  Let me think about these...

Thin Lizzy had a mid-career peak.  You still wouldn't want that many selections from their last three albums.  And their formative years still count as amongst their most interesting.

Marvin Gaye? Again, a mid-career peak, but there's an awful lot of big hits from earlier on.

Radiohead?  Not an expert, but again, a mid-career peak.  The best stuff would probably still be at the end of disc one.

The Tremeloes - would anyone need two CDs by The Tremeloes?

Jules

I for one, love the first two Radiohead albums and lost interest after that, but I guess the popular opinion is, as you say a mid career peak.