TalkAwhile - The Folk Corporation Forum

Hi,
I am trying to identify a video of Fairport that I has been sent to me. I am no expert so I need help. I will at some point share it if it turns out to be interesting, but I don't know if it is yet. It is 'almost' definitely 1985. But I think it might be cropedy, even though it is listed as Vienna Folk Festival. Is '85 cropedy available on video? has anyone got any images of it? That should be all I need. I tried Google of course but couldn't see a 1985 image of the band on stage  (this will be the Sunday night set) nor any reference to a video.
cheers


right, I think I have added an image...
yes, that is Richard Thompson and Jerry Donahue


another edit.
I think it must be Vienna (or at least not cropedy) as I have checked the setlist. On this one they play Wall of Death. SO, has anyone come across it before?  It is good quality and about 85 minutes but finished with Matty Groves so doesn't show encore

All I can say is a) '85 looks about right (but I missed that Cropredy) b) anything where RT and Jerry are together onstage is fab and c) can I see it please?   ;) ;D

Are there any other guests?  I think Trevor was at Cropredy in '85.  If not it definitely sounds like something else.  If it's Vienna (Nov?) it must be indoors...

'85 was the strange year when they had a new album out but didn't play any of it at Cropredy. I was there and remember that it was fab, with Fairport on both nights (Full House line-up on the Friday) but the details have all but gone, along with my hair and my knees.

It doesn't look like the Cropredy stage of the time and according to the FC List they didn't do Wall of Death. To confuse matters Simon is wearing the same jumper as at Cropredy '82 (which I have, by coincidence, just been copying from VHS to DVD) but Richard wasn't at that one (though Linda very much was).

Maybe yours is what it says on the tin, though I'd be intrigued as to how they got Richard and Jerry out to Vienna for it - in any case, it looks like a real find and I would love to see it!

Cool, thanks both. I think then we can be pretty certain then of it being in Vienna, it fits in with were it came to me from as well.

I will message you both with more details, and anyone else in due course. If you could keep it close to your chests for a while that would be much appreciated until I can get more detail on it's provenance, I don't want to tread on anyone's toes as these things can have a commercial value.

I like a bit of a mystery, so here are a few things I found, courtesy of concertswiki. By no means completely accurate, it still has an awful lot of info, especially for Richard. Using Simon’s jumper being confirmed 1982 vintage, I found a May 19, 1982 date in Rotterdam, with the next date listed being 8 days later in Nottingham. No other European dates but unlikely that was his only European show of the tour.

In 1986, I see 3 confirmed European dates, but they looked to be acoustic shows- November 6th and 23rd in Sweden, November 24th in Oslo. Obviously a big gap there

For both periods there was a lot of cross pollination with Simon, DM and Peggy. Jerry is the mystery. Too soon for the Hellecasters, and pretty sure he had left the UK by that point. Just adding to the mystery!

It's obviously not '86 as Swarb and Bruce are there.  From the look of them all, I see no reason to doubt it being the final fling of the old lineup in '85 before the Spring tour with the new boys the next year.  I saw the four earlier that year and they look spot on for that to me.  On the footage I've so far seen, Jerry get's introduced as flying in from LA...I'm only half way through...will look at the rest tomorrow.  It's bloody good.

Yes meant to say 1985, clearly not 86 as you say

Incidentally, when were the first dates with the new Maart/Ric lineup (and last with Bruce/Swarb)?  I always thought it was the Spring '86 tour...but was it actually after the Australian tour?  Or the June Festival Hall date?  Or Cropredy?

https://keithparry.org/music/fairport-convention/

Fortunately, the only issue of "The Ledge" that I have kept was what I regarded as a "historical" one, being the issue that covered the new line-up. Through this I can say that the first appearance of the "Maart" line-up was at The Sir George Robey pub, Finsbury Park, on 28 October 1985. I did not go, but some friends did and came away unsure if this was really a whole new line-up or a temporary measure. However, The Ledge shows the gig as being just the first date of "Gladys' World Leap '85 and '86" (although Germany is the only country covered outside of the UK !!) which finished on 18/1/1986. I attended the Greenwich gig on 30 November and remember being a bit worried about taking my now-wife to see FC for the first time. In the event, I need not have worried, it being a lot easier for her to digest the likes of The Hiring Fair than the likes of Sloth ! I am reasonably certain that the last appearance by Swarb in a "current line-up" was Cropredy 1985.

Thanks, Phil.  Which means then that the date for the Vienna Folk Festival gig above (much repeated online as "? Nov 85") is definitely incorrect. Maybe time to ask a reliable source....

Fairport UnConventional has that as November 22, 1985, billed as The New Music From Old Friends Tour. Maart had only been asked to join the day after Live Aid as legend has it

It seems most likely then that the Vienna Folk Festival took place either shortly before Cropedy (and used a warm up with Richard and Jerry) or shortly after as a result of the two of them being at Cropedy ('hey guys that was fun, do you want to come over to Austria, they have deep pockets and are willing to pay'..   ;D)

There's a balls up somewhere...as that date is given in the Keith Parry list as Vebeer Manor, Cullompton.  It is ludicrous to think that that they were happily playing with Swarb and Bruce AND Ric and Maart at the same time.  I'm sure this Vienna date is earlier.  The band relations look good on stage.  Professionals I know, but even so.  I do find it really odd that there is nothing about the Vienna Folk Festival 1985 online

I agree.  My money is on before....somewhere between the US dates with Steeleye (2 and 7 June) and 9 Aug.

and for what its worth the 1980 and 1981 editions were both held on the third weekend in June. Festivals don't often change dates.

Here's a review of the Vienna Folk Festival From Folk Roots November '85. This would have been published in early October (maybe even late September) so the festival can't have been in November - I'd say August, just before or after Cropredy, would be a good bet.

A bit more digging into my old Folk Roots mags (I knew my hoarding instincts would bear fruit one day!) gives the dates for Vienna '85 as 17th-18th August. So the weekend after Cropredy.

Nice one, cheers.

That Vienna FF article was fascinating, but it does not quite solve the mystery of when the line-up changed, as the FC line-up is not specified.  We surely have to assume, however, that it was the Swarb line-up, because surely the reviewer would have mentioned it if there had been a change. Which leaves us with the thought that for a month after 14 July (day after Live Aid) Simon & Peggy had been keeping the new line-up under their hats. Either that, or Swarb agreed to do Cropredy and Vienna despite knowing about it ...  

We know from the video that the FC line up was Swarb, Pegg, Nicol, Rowlands. (plus guests). With the next appearance not until 28th Oct and which is confirmed as the new line up, it means the video is the last appearance of Swarb in FC as a full time member?

I think you’re over rating the providence of reviewers. 😁

Possibly  ;)   ... but it still means that the campaign to recognise the Vienna footage as "historic" and therefore to be issued on DVD starts here !!!  Wonder if it includes Redgum, a band I wanted to see at the time but never managed to.    

Having had the pleasure of watching the footage, it's amazing that there is nothing whatsoever to indicate any tension between Swarb and the others.  At some of the gigs I saw during the '79-'85 interregnum Swarb was struggling quite a bit with his hearing etc which often impacted on the stage atmosphere...none of that here.  It's a brilliant hour and a bit (the JD/RT Sloth alone is worthy of a plaque) and a very significant find.

Maybe it really was his last performance as a band member and as such they were all determined to make it a good one & enjoy it? I’d love to see it!

Wheels are in motion.  Fingers crossed.

Swarb definitely knew about the new material that he didn't play on.  I recall reading that he wouldn't entertain the notion of playing anything from it during the Cropredy '85 gig.

Jules

GL was recorded in Spring '85 and released in August.  Was it actually on sale at Cropredy, does anyone remember?  I went in '84 but the not again til '87.  It must have been a very strange situation.

Very strange, I'd've thought. DM was on Gladys, but Bruce Rowland and Swarb were still in the live band... I must look back at the band biogs to see if there is anything about that period.  My first time to see them live was in Jan '86, so I didn't realise it had been so complicated.

Just been looking at The Woodworm Years and Fairport by Fairport about this period. I guess the thing to remember is that FC didn't really exist as a band at the time - they played Cropredy once a year and a few other festivals when a promoter waved enough money under their noses. But Swarb was much more involved in Whippersnapper (and living in Scotland).  It is also mentioned that DM came back in because Bruce couldn't play drums anymore (though he seems to be doing so in the still from Vienna, and presumably did at Cropredy?).

Simon mentions that Swarb was played some of the GL material while they were recording it, but was very disparaging about it and didn't want anything to do with it (either in contributing to the album or playing any of it at Cropredy).  They didn't push it for Cropredy because they didn't want Swarb to turn around and say that he didn't want to be involved at all, leaving Simon, Peggy and DM to carry the whole thing (Ric wasn't available, as he was playing the Edinburgh Festival with Julian Clary that weekend).

So the Vienna footage is probably the last time Swarb and Bruce played with Fairport as full members (rather than full-time members, as no one was a full-time member at that point).

I tend to think the split is over-stated - most of the biogs make it sounds as though they literally only met up at Cropredy during those years and it's simply not true...there are many bands still "together" who do a lot less than they did during 1979-1985!  Fairport played dates every single year...always a few dates in January (I saw them 3 times at Wimbledon Theatre) and the odd other one as and when.  I don't think I've imagined they even played a few US dates during the break ('83 or '84) - with I think DM filling in for Bruce?  Sure I've got a Bottom Line recording somewhere  If I've dreamt this last bit, please forgive me!

Certainly they played the Lone Star Cafe, NY, otherwise known as the Texas Embassy, on 22 and 23 July 1984. It's amazing how alive they were at this point for a band that was supposedly defunct. As for Swarb rejecting the "Gladys" material, that is also strange given that he had recently recorded the Close to the Wind LP with Simon, the title track of which is in a very similar style to some of the material on the GL album.

That's the one...I've got two recordings...can't remember if they were early and late on the same day or one from each day...but they definitely had DM in with Peggy, Simon and Swarb.  

You make a good point about Close to the Wind.  At the time I do remember Swarb's hearing being used as an excuse for a lot of things, especially the move towards more acoustic playing.....

Regarding Swarb, I remember a portion of the It All Comes ‘Round Again documentary with Swarb talking about that time, post 1979 ‘breakup’ and Gladys’ Leap. He said something along the lines of gigs starting again after Cropredy became a proper reunion and that there were now Fairport gigs all over every night of the week until he decided that between his ears and getting a little tired of playing Walk A While every night of the week again he would just stop. So not a definite timeline, but certainly an acknowledgment as someone else said of playing offers for gigs, in between Whippersnapper, and Tull and the RT Big Band and whatever else was going on.

Although nobody can be sure how much his opinion was coloured by the fact that Simon, Peggy, and DM had gone ahead and recorded the basic tracks without him.

Jules

Simon says in one (if not both) of the books I looked at today that he thinks Swarb rejected the Gladys Leap material as much out of sheer bloodymindedness ('I'm not on it, so I don't want to play it') as anything else.  I also think they went ahead and did it without him because he wasn't interested in recording new Fairport material, whilst the others were.

Yes, that's always been my take on it.

Jules

Ok, everyone, here she is.  It's been given the once over by Simon who is happy for this to be shared both here and on Fairporters.

Fairport Convention (Bruce, Swarb, Simon, Peggy) with guests Jerry and RT at the Vienna Folk Festival 18 Aug 1985 (the date online is oft-repeated as Nov - that date is wrong).  It's the week after Cropredy and only a couple of months before the new Ric/Maart era burst forth.

Despite all the weirdness going on, it's a (I think) really strong performance.  Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8WluvM44ys

Fab - thanks to those who facilitated our being able to see and hear it.

Jules

Thank you! Just started watching it, but must get back to work, so I'll finish it off later, but it's looking good 20 minutes in!

Bit odd about the truncated Sheebeg & Sheemore though...

This is great thank you :)

So is this the last performance by Swarb as a "member" of the band rather than as a special guest, equally with Bruce?

DW

Yes, we think so.

Update:  Scrub that, maybe...somebody has just written on FB that they saw the same lineup (minus RT) at Heusden festival in Belgium the following weekend.

The Shadows shtick was hilarious. And a great version of Sloth. Couple of bits missing, including RT's intro, but that's a minor niggle. Really enjoyed it!

Jules

Yes, it was great. Thanks Greg and David for making that available.

RT seemed to be modelling himself on Inspector Clouseau, which was an interesting fashion choice.  As was Simon's jumper, but it was the mid-80s!

None of this as unforgivable as Peggy's headless bass. Loathe those things. They're just wrong.

But Peggy's good vibes are so positive that I can forgive him this and more.

Jules

The oh-so 80's Riverhead Unicorn headless bass.
Sounds pretty good ; mind you, I've never heard Peggy sound bad, whatever instrument's in his hands.
He also used it extensively with Tull, and the 1st tune of "Instrumental Medley '85" from "Gladys' Leap" (the drums 'n' bass duet between Peggy & DM) is named "The Riverhead" after said instrument.

I can understand those basses from an ergonomic point of view - given that a Fender Jazz Bass headstock will break your toes if you let go of the neck. They're not aesthetically that pleasing though are they?

What really bothers me is where do you put your hand when you're playing on the first or second fret? Your hand would be sliding off the end. Horrible!

Jules

That reminds me of a rather rude joke...

But, back to the video - just loving it - a huge thanks to Davidmjs and everyone involved in getting it out there/here!

Chug-a-lug, to use a Peggy quote from those far-off days!

Completely undeserved...I was but a conduit.  Glad it's being enjoyed though  :)