Liege and Lief - Not Influential at All

[Curt]

Does the fact that the tune to Matty Groves is an adaptation of an American old time tune (Shady Grove) with the Scottish version of an English folk song make it Anglo-Brittano folk-rockgrass   

I know there was a long thread on this but I think labouring the Britishness of things is always on shaky grounds as so much of the British 'traditional' music of the folk revial comes from songs rediscovered in America.  Songs like Nottamun Town or Pretty Polly all come from England originally in various forms but re-arrived to the UK via an Appalachian vacation, so i'm not sure the Atlantic is a good way to make distinctions as to what is what.

 

[Mark]

Does the fact that the tune to Matty Groves is an adaptation of an American old time tune (Shady Grove) with the Scottish version of an English folk song make it Anglo-Brittano folk-rockgrass   

I know there was a long thread on this but I think labouring the Britishness of things is always on shaky grounds as so much of the British 'traditional' music of the folk revial comes from songs rediscovered in America.  Songs like Nottamun Town or Pretty Polly all come from England originally in various forms but re-arrived to the UK via an Appalachian vacation, so i'm not sure the Atlantic is a good way to make distinctions as to what is what.

there is something in what you say, but I think the general point is that the lyric for "House of the Rising Sun" (There is a house in New Orleans) pretty much excludes it from the genre of British Folk Rock.

[Alex Lyons]

I know what you mean Curt, it all gets a bit complicated, but I think you can still draw a distinction there. Despite some of the songs having been rediscovered in America - in fact a lot of the trad songs were collected in the various colonies - they're still British songs. We were distinguishing between blues songs which don't originate from Britain so you can differentiate between them

[issy]

How many other listeners discovered "traditional" music and folk customs as a result of Liege & Lief? Perhaps that's a measure of it's influence as well.

Oh this is very interesting, thanks Groovy 

It helps to have these discussions so that people like me, who are only here at all because of L&L, can catch up on what we wished we'd learned when we were younger.

Grew up with Zep, Genesis, Tull, Trex, Joni Mitchel and Van Morrison but didn't really 'cross over' until I bought L&L 3 years ago...  and have been going to FC gigs and Cropredy ever since..

Aaaahh 
Issy 

[DarrenWilliams]

How about the instrumental medley? As I think Ashely Hutchings pointed out on 'It All Comes Round Again', there was absolutely no precedent for electric jigs and reels. You could view 'Folk Roots, New Routes', Pentangle, The Animals, Dylan/Band etc as influencing/pre-empting the electric arrangements of Matty Groves, Reynardine and so on, but where are the bands/records that influenced the Lark in the Morning medley?

BTW I'm a bit of a newbie. Hello!

[abby (tank girl)]

thats almost the opposite for me - have been into rock since forever, and gradually moved toward folk, and until yestarday i had never heard l&l, although i was familiar with some of the tracks.
having read the whole thread, i wont disput its influence on the genre in general, or on certain individuals, and maybe i do have to thank FC fot the fact that the levs are here at all, but l&l remains un influential to me personally.
had it been my introduction to folk rock, the story may be different, but its preaching to the converted to me!

[The Happy Man (Rob)]

I believe the tune of "House of the Rising Sun" was taken from a traditional 17th century British folk melody.
I think it was played in the US as a blues song and a folk song. Then in 1964 the Animals produced a folk rock version of it. i.e a traditional song with a rock arrangement.

My main point was that the Genre Folk Rock had been around for a while and maybe Fairport embellished it and stuck the word British on the front end, they still invented nothing new.

From Rob

[Curt]

Ironically the tune to House of the Rising Sun was (according to Alan Lomax) a setting for Lady Barnard and Little Musgrave - the forerunner of Matty Groves.

[Neil]

My main point was that the Genre Folk Rock had been around for a while and maybe Fairport embellished it and stuck the word British on the front end, they still invented nothing new.

From Rob

Surely the question is was the album influential in the progression of folk rock, not what was the first folk rock song. House of the Rising Sun was an anomaly when compared to the rest of the Animals output. It was influenced by Dylan went on to influence Dylan and then became a regular on the best of the sixties compilations. Not a groundbreaking statement of a new direction for the band.

[Alex Lyons]

My main point was that the Genre Folk Rock had been around for a while and maybe Fairport embellished it and stuck the word British on the front end, they still invented nothing new.

Many of the tunes used for British folk songs are also found (used for totally different songs) in other countries - Germany, the Balkans etc. That doesn't change the fact that the British song is British. Similarly the fact that 'House of the Rising Sun' is perhaps based on a British tune does not make the song a British one. Quite a few Elvis songs were (musically) based on traditional songs, did Elvis start folk-rock? 

Nobody's saying that Fairport weren't without their influences, mainly what The Band were doing to revitalise American "traditional" music, but you only need to look at which albums/bands came before, and then what came after. Pre-L&L there hadn't been a folk-rock album - again, in the sense we use the term, rather than the American version - after it there's been many. A genre called folk-rock had been around for a while, but it was something entirely different - the sort of thing lampooned in 'A Mighty Wind'.

[greglin (Gregg)]

Aye, as Jackdaw, Mark and Jim have said, "British folk-rock" means the material....not the musicians. Blues-rock is a similar thing though, but I think it was much more of a logical thing to add electricity to the blues, a lot of the older blues artists readily accepted it and were at the forefront, whereas the British folk scene was very much against the rocking up of "their" music (it wasn't theirs at all of course but that's a different thread entirely...).

I think the problem is that lots of stuff that obviously isn't (British) folk-rock tends to get lumped in - people throwing in Nick Drake, Bert Jansch, Pentangle...Dylan?! Maybe the genre should have been given a better title, although I think it suits the sort of thing Fairport patented (literally folk mixed with rock) better than it does the singer-songwritery style it keeps getting applied to.

My view exactly - which I've rattled on about ad nauseum for years. I refer to "trad-rock" to differentiate from all the other stuff - of course, nobody has a clue what I'm rabbiting on about - but then, there are those who think the Darkness are a rock band....................

[peterwales]

look you bugger im just off to my bed and i see this

 whilst L&L and BoB might not be a direct influence on your bad self
its the all pervading influence that they have had since release
its the ripples on a pond school of thought, on first release theres the immediate impact of the record
and over time its peop;e influenced by something that was influenced by L&L and so on to infinity after the passing of 37 years
certainly fairport would have had a hugely different career, if, after the car crash they had decided on a different career move
Swarb for one would not have been involved, and i bet that by now they would have been a short lived footnote in british psychedelia
fondly remembered by a few, a bit like, say,caravan or principal edwards magic theatre

Going off topic this, but does anybody else remember the fine "Principal Edwards Magic Theatre?"    Can maybe best described as arty theatrical folk rock; were considered to have influenced the early Genesis and Peter Gabriel with their bizzare stage costumes, songs or stories about Giant Hogweed taking over  Notting Hill and Ladbroke Grove etc. Made a couple of great albums. Remember seeing them, in eh, Merthyr Tydfil, in around 1974. No disrespect to tre township of Merthyr, but they were always more deserving of greater places to play. Don't know what ever happened to them.

[jude]

Yes I remember 'Principal Edwards', they were certainly around and about and playing everywhere when I lived near Portobello Rd, but my memory of what they did is very hazy (ummm as are most of my memories of that time!!! )

[Jim]

never heard of em

[The Happy Man (Rob)]

Big subject which, I think, is more to do with the continuity of FC than the tracks involved although there are only two completely newly written non-trad.arr tracks (Farewell, Farewell is Willy o' Winsbury with new words).

I always thought Richard thompson wrote this song? Did he just do the words? if so shouldn't the credit read Traditional / Thompson

From Rob

[The Happy Man (Rob)]

and i bet that by now they would have been a short lived footnote in british psychedelia
fondly remembered by a few, a bit like, say,caravan or principal edwards magic theatre

Jim,

Caravan were / are much more than just a footnote in British Psychedelia. They had there biggest album successes in the early seventies, split in the early eighties. but reformed with new members and more up to date sound in 1995 and have done tours around the world up to the present. Most recent album was in 2003 and are well worth seeing live if you get the chance.

From Rob

[Malcolm]

Big subject which, I think, is more to do with the continuity of FC than the tracks involved although there are only two completely newly written non-trad.arr tracks (Farewell, Farewell is Willy o' Winsbury with new words).

I always thought Richard thompson wrote this song? Did he just do the words? if so shouldn't the credit read Traditional / Thompson

From Rob

I suppose so, but as with most trad. tunes, they were only written down in the recent past, so variations must exist. I am no expert on copyright or what has to appear as credits, though.

[greglin (Gregg)]

" Principal Edwards etc" were on the Harvest label if my failing memory is correct?? I remember hearing some of their stuff on a sampler album - quite strange but quite good.

[The Happy Man (Rob)]

I have this album, but to be truthful I only play it for farewell, farewell and crazy man michael. I much prefer the 2 previous albums. they both have some cracking tracks especially Fotheringay, Autopsy, Meet on the ledge and Who knows where the time goes.  Magic!!!!

From Rob

[peterwales]

I have this album, but to be truthful I only play it for farewell, farewell and crazy man michael. I much prefer the 2 previous albums. they both have some cracking tracks especially Fotheringay, Autopsy, Meet on the ledge and Who knows where the time goes.  Magic!!!!

From Rob

Agree with that. L&L is a great album, but I always have preferred the earlier two; they had that more psychedelic, hard,darker, Americanised edge- Dylanesque and all that, but despite nationalistic sensitivities, do we need to worry about that? I don't think so. Listening to them now, they are evocative of stranger, but more hopeful, exciting and optimistic times.