Fairport List

[WiltK]

I joined the Fairport List in 1999, shortly before attending the Cropredy festival for the first time, (I had a different nickname then, I don't remember what it was but it was probably just as silly as the one I have now!). I found the list to be a welcoming, friendly and informative email forum and much of the music that I listen to these days is a direct result of the recommendations and information that I picked up during the 6 years that I was there. Being a non UK or European resident, the FC-list was my prime source for news and views on the music that I love to listen to, and about which I knew very little at the time.
Over the years the list deteriorated into a sporadic cross-flow of snipes, gripes, personal messages and mostly off-topic posts that meant very little to anyone who wasn't directly involved in the dialogue and/or conversation of the moment. Based on my experience with another email list that I was on for about the same number of years (TalkTull), and which deteriorated in much the same way as the FC list did, I conclude that the average "shelf life" of an email based, music discussion list is about 6 to 7 years.

WK

[Edthefolkie]

Sounds like the BBC Folk & Acoustic Forum. Makes me realise how good Talkawhile is.

Thanks Colin!!

[YaBB Master (Colin)]

As Leahon will attest, sometimes sweet moderation is what keeps things together.

At times the Mailing List has been the heart of the Fairport community, at others it's been distanced from, because of the flame wars. Use whatever suits you (sir).

[AdrianW]

I'll come clean, and admit to being an active member of both The Fairport (mailing) List and the Talkawhile Bulletin Board and am posting this message to both.

Both are generally congenial and welcoming places, with Fairport Convention information, discussion and some general chatter, with lurkers outnumbering active posters. Some of us spend far too much time on one, the other, or both.

I am guilty of not following the list convention of changing a message subject when it degenerates into chatter, which I admit does make it hard for people following the digest version of the list or using an inadequate mail user agent which doesn't thread properly. Once such a message has been sent, there is nothing that anybody can do to correct or stop it.

To those ex list members who I have helped drive away: My apologies, please come back.

[abby (tank girl)]

so if there are so many active members of both, how come after 9 months membership to talk awhile, i've never heard of the mailing list?

[fstix (Michael)]

As a few people have said, there is obviously plenty of room in the cyber-world for both.  My point is that it's just very unfortunate that something once so good has become so ordinary.  With one or two particular members there who seem to have unfixable ego problems, I can't see how it's going to change, or even reverse its decline.

Perhaps the problem is more apparent to those who have been on the list a long time and can compare past to present.

So if anyone wants to try and change it by bringing the discussion mainly back to Fairport, then good luck to you.  My suspicion is it won't take long to degenerate back to its current state.  There are those who have decided they have the right to spout whatever (and however much) garbage they like to the world at large, and don't take kindly to the idea of moderation, in any form.  There's some very good people there too, of course - tellingly, a great deal of them choose to remain silent....

MH

[abby (tank girl)]

i'm sorry, i still dont think i get this tho.
if its e mail its not that anonymous?
so how can one remain silent?
yes i know, they can choose not to advertise the fact that they are involved, but if its dear to their heart, why wouldnt they want to shout about it and get it fixed?
i'd liken the situation to the hippy commune ideal.


i speak as a non member and my comments may be either irrelevant or plain out of line, but thats how it looks to an outsider.
my biggest worry in life is colin..............'aaaarrrgh - run for your lives........'
( only messin colin - i'd rather you than a million unknowns after my hide..........)(and actually paul scares me more)

on a serious note tho, with no regulation, you cant regulate hundreds of people   people is what people is.

[abby (tank girl)]

 There are those who have decided they have the right to spout whatever (and however much) garbage they like to the world at large, and don't take kindly to the idea of moderation, in any form. 
MH

fortuneately in the society in which we live, we do.
we also have the right not to listen.
we also have the right to debate.

abby

[fstix (Michael)]

i'm sorry, i still dont think i get this tho.
if its e mail its not that anonymous?
so how can one remain silent?
yes i know, they can choose not to advertise the fact that they are involved, but if its dear to their heart, why wouldnt they want to shout about it and get it fixed?

As it is, you join the list and, like all members, get every email anyone sends to it.  You can either get them individually or as a digest each day.  You don't have to actually post anything yourself to get all the emails.  Why people choose not to post?  Shyness, unwillingness, afraid it'll be lost among the chatter.....

This is a salient point for me atm - I've recently become a co-moderator on another list (to do with Australian rock of the 60s and 70s) - until recently, it too had so much chat and personal abuse, people were unsubbing and the decline was obvious (not to mention the spam) - all because the moderator was busy and couldn't do anything about it.  Now with firm but fair rules in place, and moderators unafraid to cop the abuse from banned troublemakers, the list is back to where it was - lots of friendly on-topic conversation and a positive feeling once again.

As far as I can see, the FC List needs a similar kick up the arse - a definite set of rules ("ooo - rules, how un-rock & roll!" as one perpetrator whined on the other list) and a moderator or two in place to enforce them.  No disrespect to James the listmaster here either; his job is to maintain the list which is separate from moderation.  The rules could be mutually decided within the group, not just suddenly imposed from above. 

But I doubt it would happen because there are currently too many people happy with the "anything goes". 

[abby (tank girl)]

and again, i'll liken it to the commune mentality - a great marxist idealism in philosophy which just cant work given the state of human nature.............
(and i'm the biggest effin hippy going), but in pracise -it always FALLS FLAT in whatever form.

but i wanna keep on tryin............

peace.

[AdrianW]

Responding mainly to groove st's messages:

To find the Fairport List, try Googling for it.

The Fairport List is closed, but not moderated. Almost anybody may join, after which they receive every message sent to the list. They only become visible to others if they choose to post. There are a few lesser sanctions, such as peer pressure, and the list owners can throw people off the list. Disenchanted subscribers can try to change other people's behaviour (the list charter recommends this be done in private email), be more selective in what they read (where accurate subject headings help a lot), "killfile" some posters (so they never see mail originating from them), or just walk away (sadly, a few seem to have done this).

Generally, closed unmoderated mailing lists with hundreds, or thousands, of members work very well, provided people follow the lists conventions, lurk for long enough to find out what they are, obey the list charter, think before they post, and have some self control. It helps if people use mail clients which can cope with the volume of mail and organise it properly. For example, no mailing list emails make it into my inbox, instead being automatically filed away in folders I only look at when I want to, thanks to procmail and mutt. As I get thousands of emails a week, I couldn't survive without such. With such software, mailing lists become very much more efficient than bulletin boards, but nowhere near as pretty.

Moderated mailing lists are possible, but work in reverse to here, with every message going to the moderator for approval. Even if much of the moderation is automated, the human moderators have a big, thankless, task. One evening off and the conspiracy theorists fill your mail queue.

More generally:

I'm slightly amused to see "joined them, said something, got a hostile reception" posts on both sides of the fence. Maybe what was written was in the wrong place or under the wrong subject.

I'm sorry to see long term members leaving from either side.

Being bemused by what is going on is normal (for me at least) whenever I join a new discussion group.

I'm of the opinion that raking over historical conflicts (and there have been some I gather) is totally unproductive, and that any remaining antagonisms are best kept private.

Things change to suit circumstances, or die.

[Strictly-Lunghi]

Funny this topic was started yesterday, as I SUBscribed only last night, having heard of the mailing list very recently. So this very morning I received Vol. 11, issues 21 & 22 in my mailbox, and I did not know what to make of it at all. I had expected to read about all things Fairport as I take a deep interest in this precious band, which is why I decided to lurk for a while. I thought it was me not having woken up yet... I kept frowning at the enormous amount of chitchat that has NAUGHT to do with Fairport or linked subjects. What are they on about?! Well, by the looks of it (reading all the messages above) it wasn't me. So ok, I'll give this mailing list the benefit of the doubt, whilst keeping the comments above in the back of my mind, but if this thread of dialogue on the mailing list doesn't change for the better then I'm out. As it is now, I feel very uninvited to place anything on it. First impressions eh...

Nav

[Strictly-Lunghi]

The people on the mailing list have noticed the list is a topic of discussion here on TalkAwhile and are not happy about the way it's being discussed. Someone refers to those (long-term) members who have just left and claims it's your loss, not theirs. Hmmm...

Reading through the issues again I am genuinely bored. I hope this changes, that the people on the mailing list give me a reason to stay. Good luck to them.

Nav

[Alex Lyons]

To be fair, the incredible volume of very brief, non-Fairport, almost Messenger style posts over the past couple of days (about 60 in three hours the other morning) is pretty out of the ordinary so I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong idea.

Often the List is fairly quiet, and at other times there's quite a few interesting on-topic messages. Today there's an interesting thread on recent albums, the lack of electricity, etc. The problem is that when there's a lot of irrelevant stuff it's tricky to sift out the wheat from the chaff.

Mainly though, I think it's just really the sporadic & lengthy bursts of in jokes & e-flirting between half a dozen or so members (which is really only of interest to those involved & could/should be done privately) that frustrates people, especially those of us who don't have the time/inclination to write and read dozens of emails all day.

So I'd give it a chance, Navigator, get a feel for it over a week or so and then decide. Or perhaps if you do unsubscribe, give it another go at a peak time - tours, Cropredy, new albums - when there's more on-topic stuff.

[Strictly-Lunghi]

So I'd give it a chance, Navigator, get a feel for it over a week or so and then decide. Or perhaps if you do unsubscribe, give it another go at a peak time - tours, Cropredy, new albums - when there's more on-topic stuff.

Like I said, I WILL give it the benefit of the doubt. But I must be honest, TalkAwhile is not just interesting and inviting to at least explore at what you call peak times. That - to my mind - is a huge difference. Topics galore at 'quieter' times! The Fairport list should be inviting to scan at ALL times. Mind you, it shouldn't be/become a competition between TalkAwhile and the Fairport List. I'm just trying to get my message across to the people of the mailing list.

Nav

[Chris]

Another issue is the blatant hostility which is shown towards the existence of talkawhile by certain listmembers who really should know better.

Too right - with one in particul;ar causing the Admins plenty of problems....

In actual fact, this board is much closer to the band, and for the most part the people who are closest to the band (to the best of my knowledge) are generally on both (with one notable exception).

Two now....:-)

The last few days have ben like a private conversation between around 4 members....A quick pointer to the List FAQs (which are comprehensive!) would have answered most of Hannah's questions...and the rest should have have been taken privately....

To be frank, I'm not sure that the current FAC tour has even been mentioned, certainly no review that I've seen....

To be fair to those complaining, the last 'generally agreed' ground rules on the list were that discussions of any music & the artists were OK, the rest to be consigned to a separate 'off-topic' list which still exists. I do think the latest exchanges have damaged the list....

[fstix (Michael)]

A quick pointer to the List FAQs (which are comprehensive!) would have answered most of Hannah's questions...and the rest should have have been taken privately....

The same FAQs that state clearly at the top:
"General advice on posting to the list:
Please engage brain first and ask yourself whether the vast majority of the list would gain from what you are about to write!"

Why bother having them if everybody chooses to ignore them?

[Alex Lyons]

To be frank, I'm not sure that the current FAC tour has even been mentioned, certainly no review that I've seen....

There was a mini-thread about the Saltaire gig, reviews & setlists from Nigel Schofield and Tim Moon, but other than that I think you may well be right. It hadn't actually occured to me, to be honest, but it is slightly strange now you come to mention it  

To be fair to those complaining, the last 'generally agreed' ground rules on the list were that discussions of any music & the artists were OK, the rest to be consigned to a separate 'off-topic' list which still exists. I do think the latest exchanges have damaged the list....

That has always seemed like the logical solution to me. Keep the main List for on-topic stuff so it's manageable for people to read, and the handful who want to chat can do it on the 'off-topic' list. I'd rather see half a dozen interesting messages than 60 pointless "ROTFs" and "Me Toos".Unfortunately the attitude amongst said handful is that they're doing nothing wrong and therefore won't change a thing. I think the fact that most of the more valued members have either left or no longer post would suggest otherwise.

This board probably isn't the right place to discuss it but I think people don't really want to post this sort of thing on the List itself as it doesn't seem to produce a constructive reaction.

[Strictly-Lunghi]

So I'd give it a chance, Navigator, get a feel for it over a week or so and then decide. Or perhaps if you do unsubscribe, give it another go at a peak time - tours, Cropredy, new albums - when there's more on-topic stuff.

Like I said, I WILL give it the benefit of the doubt. But I must be honest, TalkAwhile is not just interesting and inviting to at least explore at what you call peak times. That - to my mind - is a huge difference. Topics galore at 'quieter' times! The Fairport list should be inviting to scan at ALL times. 

Nav

I AM giving it a go at a - and I quote - peak time!! There's a FAC tour going on at this very moment! Are the people on the Fairport List really that busy with... well, what really? Come on! I want to see reviews of the gigs! If only because I live on the other side of the North Sea and can't attend any of them.

I'm lost for words.

Nav

[leahdon (Donna)]

To be fair to those complaining, the last 'generally agreed' ground rules on the list were that discussions of any music & the artists were OK, the rest to be consigned to a separate 'off-topic' list which still exists. I do think the latest exchanges have damaged the list....

That has always seemed like the logical solution to me. Keep the main List for on-topic stuff so it's manageable for people to read, and the handful who want to chat can do it on the 'off-topic' list. I'd rather see half a dozen interesting messages than 60 pointless "ROTFs" and "Me Toos".Unfortunately the attitude amongst said handful is that they're doing nothing wrong and therefore won't change a thing. I think the fact that most of the more valued members have either left or no longer post would suggest otherwise.

This board probably isn't the right place to discuss it but I think people don't really want to post this sort of thing on the List itself as it doesn't seem to produce a constructive reaction.

To be honest, I think part of the problem is that many of the off-topic discussions are generated from the on-topic discussions.  Yes, Hannah should read the FAQ, but it does mean that we've all got to know her quite quickly, as opposed to if all the messages had stayed perfectly on topic.  However, the number of ROTFs and Me Toos has dropped compared to a couple of years ago.
Anyway, a discussion on the merits of how the list is run was started last night, and has been getting some good discussion going.

Donna