Liege & Lief to be released in new SHM-SACD format by Universal Japan

[Jules Gray]

I would like to hear Liege & Lief with drums re-recorded by DM now - that would be quite something

Ooh, no.  I really dislike people fiddling about with history like that.

Jules

[dooovall [Daniel]]

Compare and contrast this product with the version of L & L set for release in the new Sandy Denny box set.  Is there any reason to have both?

[Dan O.]

I would like to hear Liege & Lief with drums re-recorded by DM now - that would be quite something

Ooh, no.  I really dislike people fiddling about with history like that.

Jules

Me too, DM's drumming is just fine as it is on L&L. Reminds me of when Sharon Osbourne ordered Lee Kerslake's drumming and Bob Daisley's bass to be re-recorded on the master tapes by Mike Bordin and Robert Trujillo on Ozzy's first two solo albums. This was apparently due to the Osbournes being fed up with the number of lawsuits against them from Kerslake and Daisley, and so to cut off their stream of royalties from those recordings, re-wrote history and had their parts replaced by the rhythm section from Ozzy's then current band. Apparently, those albums are now being reissued with the original musicians intact as the dispute has now been settled.

[quodlibet (Ian)]

I would like to hear Liege & Lief with drums re-recorded by DM now - that would be quite something

Ooh, no.  I really dislike people fiddling about with history like that.

Jules

Me too, DM's drumming is just fine as it is on L&L. Reminds me of when Sharon Osbourne ordered Lee Kerslake's drumming and Bob Daisley's bass to be re-recorded on the master tapes by Mike Bordin and Robert Trujillo on Ozzy's first two solo albums. This was apparently due to the Osbournes being fed up with the number of lawsuits against them from Kerslake and Daisley, and so to cut off their stream of royalties from those recordings, re-wrote history and had their parts replaced by the rhythm section from Ozzy's then current band. Apparently, those albums are now being reissued with the original musicians intact as the dispute has now been settled.

Thirded. Much as I love DM's drumming & I do big time, he seems not to be as inventive these days as he was when he was finding his feet in '69 - '70. So, bring him a little further forward in the mix, but otherwise, leave as is.

[Linkster]

Redbook CD (16/44) at the limits of human hearing?!!!  Laughable.

[Jules Gray]

Compare and contrast this product with the version of L & L set for release in the new Sandy Denny box set.  Is there any reason to have both?

Presumably the Sandy set won't include the instrumental jigs and reels.

Jules

[Goaty]

Redbook CD (16/44) at the limits of human hearing?!!!  Laughable.

I've an Alesis Masterlink, the difference between 44.1k 16 bit and 96k 24 bit recordings is obvious, even to my knackered ears.

[Linkster]

What I meant is that I can easily hear the difference between redbook CD and high resolution formats both sourced from the original analog masters.  Increasing word lengths/sampling rates makes a big difference on PCM digital.  SACD uses DSD processing which is altogether different from PCM.  It is true that on paper the redbook standard covers the limits of human hearing, but within that range high resolution formats have much better inner detailing, soundstaging and dynamics (PRAT; pace, rhythm and timing).

[Linkster]

Goaty, thanks for backing me up!

[StephenGiles]

I would like to hear Liege & Lief with drums re-recorded by DM now - that would be quite something

Ooh, no.  I really dislike people fiddling about with history like that.

Jules

Me too, DM's drumming is just fine as it is on L&L. Reminds me of when Sharon Osbourne ordered Lee Kerslake's drumming and Bob Daisley's bass to be re-recorded on the master tapes by Mike Bordin and Robert Trujillo on Ozzy's first two solo albums. This was apparently due to the Osbournes being fed up with the number of lawsuits against them from Kerslake and Daisley, and so to cut off their stream of royalties from those recordings, re-wrote history and had their parts replaced by the rhythm section from Ozzy's then current band. Apparently, those albums are now being reissued with the original musicians intact as the dispute has now been settled.

Thirded. Much as I love DM's drumming & I do big time, he seems not to be as inventive these days as he was when he was finding his feet in '69 - '70. So, bring him a little further forward in the mix, but otherwise, leave as is.

No, I prefer both the sound and the heavyness of his playing now, but that's just me

[Dan O.]

One could technically argue that if you were present at Cropredy 2007 for the Friday night Fairport '69 reunion, you've already heard L&L with DM playing the album the way he would play it now !  

[Jules Gray]

One could technically argue that if you were present at Cropredy 2007 for the Friday night Fairport '69 reunion, you've already heard L&L played with DM playing the album the way he would play it now !  

I must listen to that show again.  That was such an emotional gig!

Jules

[YaBB Master (Colin)]

Redbook CD (16/44) at the limits of human hearing?!!!  Laughable.

I've an Alesis Masterlink, the difference between 44.1k 16 bit and 96k 24 bit recordings is obvious, even to my knackered ears.

I would suggest that the discs are mastered with different listening environments in mind and that is the difference.

If you master a CD with a wide dynamic range and 'detail' it will sound very different from one with radio plays in mind. You can't have both.

Exactly what part of the CD Redbook specification is 'laughable'? And what features of a 70s tape recording will it fail to reproduce?

[Nick]

If you master a CD with a wide dynamic range and 'detail' it will sound very different from one with radio plays in mind. You can't have both.

That rings a bell. It reminds me of my student days when I used to take gig photos and sell them to local papers. I had to become very adept at controlling the 'hardness' or contrast of each print. Prints I did for myself were vastly different to prints I did for newspapers. Newspapers couldn't cope with the big dynamic range (white-to-black) that you'd expect to see in a framed photo - they tended to resolve faces into white blobs on a black background with no definition inbetween. So prints for papers had to be made deliberately soft (light grey-to-dark grey) in order look good on the page.

So yes, I can well believe that an audio mix made for one purpose would not sound the same as a mix made for another purpose.

Cheers

Nick

[Linkster]

Colin, the redbook standard was developed 30 years ago and was a reflection of the technology circa 1980.  This is why an analog master does not sound the same in CD playback  From Soundstage:

Most modern recordings are made at bit depths greater than 16 and sample rates higher than 44.1kHz, and there is little doubt that such recordings sound better when played at those higher bit depths and sample rates than when downsampled to fit onto a CD. Music in better-than-CD resolution has been available for about a decade, but it is only with the adoption of computer-based audio that bit depth and sample rate have become divorced from any particular physical medium, offering greater choice for both content providers and consumers. As more record labels and websites offer high-resolution recordings, primarily through downloads, and more equipment manufacturers offer components capable of playing back hi-rez files, it’s time for us to consider the question of how much resolution is enough,

[Nick]

the redbook standard was developed 30 years ago and was a reflection of the technology circa 1980...

Liege & Lief was recorded a full 11 years before that.

Most modern recordings are made at bit depths greater than 16 and sample rates higher than 44.1kHz, and there is little doubt that such recordings sound better when played at those higher bit depths and sample rates than when downsampled to fit onto a CD.

Liege & Lief is not a modern recording. The idea of downsampling to fit onto a CD is irrelevant. This release is basically a case of digitising an existing analogue recording of unknown "quality". Irrespective of the chosen bit rate and depth the fidelity of the final recording is absolutely dependent on that original 41 year-old source.

Cheers

Nick

[YaBB Master (Colin)]

Colin, the redbook standard was developed 30 years ago and was a reflection of the technology circa 1980.

It was never a refection of the technology. The standard was set by looking at the theoretical limitations of analogue sound and exceeding them.
The very best modern mixing desks might just have an input dynamic range of 90dB, but any sound not generated purely electronically will be nothing like that. A CD is better than that (96dB). A recording from the 70s will be lucky to manage 60dB.
There's nothing you can do about that, or the fact that the frequency range will also have been limited to what was required.

And then there's your hearing range which from threshold of hearing in an anechoic chamber, to front row at a rock concert is about 85dB.

And what is your answer to the blatant codswallop about "...pressed on special SHM discs utilizing high-quality polycarbonate material originally developed for LCD panels for the ultimate audiophile experience".

[Jim]

Colin, the redbook standard was developed 30 years ago and was a reflection of the technology circa 1980.

It was never a refection of the technology. The standard was set by looking at the theoretical limitations of analogue sound and exceeding them.
The very best modern mixing desks might just have an input dynamic range of 90dB, but any sound not generated purely electronically will be nothing like that. A CD is better than that (96dB). A recording from the 70s will be lucky to manage 60dB.
There's nothing you can do about that, or the fact that the frequency range will also have been limited to what was required.

And what is your answer to the blatant codswallop about "...pressed on special SHM discs utilizing high-quality polycarbonate material originally developed for LCD panels for the ultimate audiophile experience".

and cue Dymphna out of ballykissangel
"its not just any remastered cd its a marks and spencer remastered cd"

or "if carlsberg remastered cds.......

[Dan O.]

Colin, the redbook standard was developed 30 years ago and was a reflection of the technology circa 1980.

It was never a refection of the technology. The standard was set by looking at the theoretical limitations of analogue sound and exceeding them.
The very best modern mixing desks might just have an input dynamic range of 90dB, but any sound not generated purely electronically will be nothing like that. A CD is better than that (96dB). A recording from the 70s will be lucky to manage 60dB.
There's nothing you can do about that, or the fact that the frequency range will also have been limited to what was required.

And what is your answer to the blatant codswallop about "...pressed on special SHM discs utilizing high-quality polycarbonate material originally developed for LCD panels for the ultimate audiophile experience".

and cue Dymphna out of ballykissangel
"its not just any remastered cd its a marks and spencer remastered cd"

or "if carlsberg remastered cds.......

"blatant codswallop", love it Colin ! Will the cd's be soaked overnight in swamp water to give them soul, and then cryogenically regenerated to improve the movement of the sonic particles ?

Mmm...maybe getting a bit over-excited about this...time for a brew !

[Andy]

Are the outer rims of these cds painted green?