Albion Band Lives yet again!

[Jim]

There's about 63 people, at last count, who have been in The Albion Band. I don't think anyone buying a ticket to see The Albion Band is going to be in the least bit surprised there will be four more they haven't seen before!

Andy, my response top you earlier probably wasn't best made - I was more referring to the fact you said it's passing off and it's illegal which, when they are given approval to use the name, it clearly isn't.

Maybe it's worth a straw poll on a separate topic to see who would go an and see Fairport Convention on their first Winter Tour after Simon Nicol calls it a day - would everyone who disagrees with what The Albion Band is doing stop listening to Fairport after the only original member still in the band (who incidentally also took time out of the band) leaves? It would be interesting to find out.

not the same thing at all really, is it?
no matter how many musicians have played under the "Albion" banner it was always Ashley's project, he wasnt called the guvnor for nowt. Simon as you said left FC for a few years in the 70's and FC soldiered on without a founder member, although there was some debate as to whether they should, mostly from within the band.
the albion moniker has been in retirement for a few years now, barring the Christmas tour, and its a bit rum of Blair to assume the mantle of albionity without his old fella on bass for a while at least.
what if it had been no relation who decided to form an albion band?
i'm in two minds as i'm quite keen to hear what they've come up with and the sleeve certainly hints of promise.

[Nick Reg]

Fairport have toured with no original members in the band , during Simons sabbatical.

[David W]

I guess the scenario would have been if Fairport had reformed in 1985 with Simon Nicol and Dave Pegg as producers but the band being for instance Ric, Maart, Chris, Gerry and Cathy le Surf.

Would that have been Fairport?

DW

[Jim]

I guess the scenario would have been if Fairport had reformed in 1985 with Simon Nicol and Dave Pegg as producers but the band being for instance Ric, Maart, Chris, Gerry and Cathy le Surf.

Would that have been Fairport?

DW

well that's purely conjecture as maart , chris and gerry were not a part of the gladys leap record, but no, it wouldn't have been fairport then,if it happened in the future it would be if they wanted it to be, but there would have been a line of sucession of sorts and fairly seamless. the albions have a modicum of sucession but it's hardly seamless

[GubGub (Al)]

The other distinction is that there was always a continuum with Fairport (as there would be with the orchestra or brass band analogies). Each line up has contained elements of the previous line up so it seemed fairly organic. That has always been the case with the Albions too, albeit that the continuum has largely been Ashley. That is not the case here. This is an entirely new band, an exciting sounding band unquestionably but a new band nevertheless.

[David W]

I guess the scenario would have been if Fairport had reformed in 1985 with Simon Nicol and Dave Pegg as producers but the band being for instance Ric, Maart, Chris, Gerry and Cathy le Surf.

Would that have been Fairport?

DW

well that's purely conjecture as maart , chris and gerry were not a part of the gladys leap record, but no, it wouldn't have been fairport then,if it happened in the future it would be if they wanted it to be, but there would have been a line of sucession of sorts and fairly seamless. the albions have a modicum of sucession but it's hardly seamless

That's my point - it seems a parallel to the Albions situation, a group of non Albion musicians taking on the mantle with the guidance and support of the previous band.

[Andy]

Just call them the New Albion Band and get on with it.

[Peter H-K]

There are difficult philosophical questions here about the identity criteria for folk bands! Fortunately, I'm a professional philosopher ....

The first thing to say is that, pace Simon, I don't think the brass band/symphony orchestra analogies work, in so far as the way that we identify the persistence of one sort of thing isn't necessarily the same as the way we identify the persistence of another sort of thing. Brass bands and symphony orchestras are not typically identified by their members at all: frequently, we don't even know who those members are. Instead, they're identified by their links to a city or town, perhaps, or to certain patrons. Small folk-rock bands might not only be identified by their members, but, for all that, their members form (a necessary?) part of the manner in which we identify them.

If Wingates Brass Band were to change all its members tomorrow, because of the sort of thing it is, it would still be Wingates Brass Band. But, being a different sort of thing, if Fairport Convention were to change all its members tomorrow, I'd be inclined to say that the result would not be Fairport Convention (in part because we have a much greater interest in the individual members of a folk-rock band than we do in the individual members of a brass band, and that interest enters into the identity criteria for folk-rock bands). If you don't share that intuition, suppose this: tomorrow, the new Fairport forms, and the old carries on. They can't both be Fairport, since identity is a one-one relation. But if we want to say that the new Fairport is Fairport when the old Fairport no longer exists, but isn't when it does, then that makes the identity of the new band contingent on what other sorts of things there are in the world. And that doesn't seem right.

Of course, things aren't that simple. We know that folk-rock bands retain their identity through changes in personnel, though plausibly those changes need to be of a certain type (there needs to be a certain overlapping of membership, as there always has been in Fairport's case, in a "Ship of Theseus" sort of way). At least some rock/pop bands don't, though. How many Beatles would have had to have left before you no longer had the Beatles? Possibly only one (at least, post-fame: we can coherently  talk of a pre-Ringo Beatles, it would seem). But it doesn't work that way with all rock bands. Some seem to require only some members to remain (The Kinks have persisted through a number of line-up changes, but intuitively, if you don't have Dave and Ray, you don't have The Kinks). Others seem to be able to lose all their members over time (or do they? If we went to see, say, Freddie and the Dreamers sans either Freddie or any of the original Dreamers, would we perhaps say we hadn't really seen Freddie and the Dreamers? And add this into the mix: sometimes what we have to say is just a way of making a point: I've been known to say to people that I haven't really seen The Who, because I've only seen them with Kenney Jones rather than Keith Moon. But that's not really putatively fact-stating discourse, but the making of a point: I have really seen The Who).

[Shane (Skirky)]

There are difficult philosophical questions here about the identity criteria for folk bands! Fortunately, I'm a professional philosopher ....

*Applauds*  

[PLW (Peter)]

Crikey. It's only rock n roll for gawd's sake.

[Peter H-K]

Crikey. It's only rock n roll for gawd's sake.

Ah yes, but you see, I like it.  

[jaypeter (Peter)]

I have had that broom for thirty years, it's had three new heads and four new handles.

[jaypeter (Peter)]

Crikey. It's only rock n roll for gawd's sake.

Is it? Are you sure?

[GubGub (Al)]

I have had that broom for thirty years, it's had three new heads and four new handles.

But not both at the same time!

[jaypeter (Peter)]

I have had that broom for thirty years, it's had three new heads and four new handles.

But not both at the same time!

Have you been looking in my broom cupboard?

[NeilMcLaughlin]

There's about 63 people, at last count, who have been in The Albion Band. I don't think anyone buying a ticket to see The Albion Band is going to be in the least bit surprised there will be four more they haven't seen before!

Andy, my response top you earlier probably wasn't best made - I was more referring to the fact you said it's passing off and it's illegal which, when they are given approval to use the name, it clearly isn't.

Maybe it's worth a straw poll on a separate topic to see who would go an and see Fairport Convention on their first Winter Tour after Simon Nicol calls it a day - would everyone who disagrees with what The Albion Band is doing stop listening to Fairport after the only original member still in the band (who incidentally also took time out of the band) leaves? It would be interesting to find out.

not the same thing at all really, is it?
no matter how many musicians have played under the "Albion" banner it was always Ashley's project, he wasnt called the guvnor for nowt. Simon as you said left FC for a few years in the 70's and FC soldiered on without a founder member, although there was some debate as to whether they should, mostly from within the band.
the albion moniker has been in retirement for a few years now, barring the Christmas tour, and its a bit rum of Blair to assume the mantle of albionity without his old fella on bass for a while at least.
what if it had been no relation who decided to form an albion band?
i'm in two minds as i'm quite keen to hear what they've come up with and the sleeve certainly hints of promise.

I am finding all of this discussion pretty entertaining, but to my mind it comes down to this: If the Albion band was "always" Ashley's
project, and he was/is "the guvnor" and that wasn't/isn't "for nowt", then I reckon we should accept Ashley's decree that this
is the Albion Band.  Certainly it is a NEW Albion Band, but if he and they don't feel the need to state it that way, I'm quite comfortable with that, knowing that they are.  It seems to me that if this band gives it a go and has some success, that won't undo any of what went before.
Just think of the Albion Band as the project Ashley focused on for the longest, and don't worry too much about their fate when he stops focusing on them, as the bands Ashley left have a pretty decent track record without him, even though he certainly was an important member whilst there in each of them.  Now, I'm not sure how well that might play out for the Rainbow Chasers, but even though I'm not too familiar with their work, I sure as hell hate the band name, so whatever.

[Martin F]

When will Blair step out from under the shadow of his dad, or will he ride his coat tails forever?

[jaypeter (Peter)]

Maybe it's worth a straw poll on a separate topic to see who would go an and see Fairport Convention on their first Winter Tour after Simon Nicol calls it a day -

Depends who replaces him.

[KascadeDan]

The Albions minus Ashley is, yes, something that doesn't feel right, and from afar it doesn't look like it would work very well. Having said that, another example of this is Stackridge, who lost Mutter Slater last year due to other work. I saw Stackridge in April, and was surprised to see Warren and Davis but no Slater, and at first it was a bit dubious. But after listening and realising that, really, it is the music that is the constant factor in band continuity. And Stackridge, Slater less, are quite good. So it's possible the Albions could have the same effect. But we just don't know yet.

[Peter H-K]

 But after listening and realising that, really, it is the music that is the constant factor in band continuity.

It can't be the only factor, though, otherwise The Bootleg Beatles would be The Beatles. And I take it they're not.