Liege and Lief era Fairport and Swarb

[Peter H-K]

For the first time in a while, as I cooked dinner last night I listened to Liege and Lief from beginning to end. Quite apart from marvelling at how good it is, and how I still love it 30 years after I first heard it, I started thinking about an issue that I don't think I've ever seen addressed anywhere.

I was thinking about the fact that Swarb had been brought in as a full-time band member at this point, and initially thought "Having a really respected, established name from the folk scene on board must have made the whole electric folk idea more palatable to those on the more traditional wing". And then it struck me that I didn't know how this actually played out. Was that the case? Did the folk purists look at the album at least with the thought that there must be something in this if someone like Swarb was getting involved? Or was it thought that Swarb was acting as a traitor (did anyone shout "Judas" at their record player?  )? Or did the purists just ignore the whole thing? (I seem to remember reading that Bert Lloyd approved, but that's just one man, albeit a very influential one.) And I felt surprised that, to my memory, I've never read anything about this issue or heard any band member say anything about it. Maybe that's because there was no issue ... I don't know.

Any thoughts?

[Swarb]

At the time, the folk scene got behind the idea with a vengeance, I don't recall a single voice raised in protest.   All the complaints came from the rock scene who didn't want the band to play folk etc      swarb

[Jules Gray]

Hello Swarb, long time no visit!

Jules

[Peter H-K]

At the time, the folk scene got behind the idea with a vengeance, I don't recall a single voice raised in protest.   All the complaints came from the rock scene who didn't want the band to play folk etc      swarb

Many thanks, Swarb! I was beginning to think nobody had an opinion on my question, but it's good to have the definitive answer from the one who knows best!

I guess your answer tells us a lot about the inclusiveness and open-mindedness of the folk scene, while reflecting less well on the rock scene at the time. Or do you think (all modesty aside) that the inclusion of two highly respected folk performers, in the shape of Sandy Denny and your good self, aided the acceptance on the part of the folk crowd?

[Swarb]

Hard to say, I think the folk scene was maybe ready to move on or polarise, shortly after L and L  it seemed that lots of folk people were plugging in, very few rockers though bought fiddles      

[Peter H-K]

Hard to say, I think the folk scene was maybe ready to move on or polarise, shortly after L and L  it seemed that lots of folk people were plugging in, very few rockers though bought fiddles      

Great, thanks for that Swarb. Oh, and for all the superb music, too!  

[steve ropeyboat]

I'm one of the rock scene who hated the idea of FC going fully folk.  At the time, and for many years after, I reckoned that Dave Swarbrick joining was the ruination of the band (no offence intended).  Sure, they did some excellent stuff, 'Matty Groves', etc, but it all became very samey.  My opinion has mellowed of late but I still believe the early albums and music was the best.

[Pat Helms]

I'm one of the rock scene who hated the idea of FC going fully folk.  At the time, and for many years after, I reckoned that Dave Swarbrick joining was the ruination of the band (no offence intended).  Sure, they did some excellent stuff, 'Matty Groves', etc, but it all became very samey.  My opinion has mellowed of late but I still believe the early albums and music was the best.

"Samey?" Perhaps, but some folks like that in their favorite bands.    I preferred the reliable jangle of the original Byrds to the later stuff where the ric had been tamed by Clarence's tele.  

Who can say? Personally, I think L&L gave the band an identity which provided its longevity.  Regardless of the direction, Sandy and Richard were destined to leave.  It might have taken another album or two, but it was inevitable.  They were just too prolific and talented to stay within the confines of a single band. Without their presence, a Fairport which might have remained a cool, eclectic flower bomb ensemble would have collapsed and disappeared.  

While British folk rock did not shake the music scene, at least Fairport owned the prestige of its invention....and with a highly regarded Swarb at the band's helm, it had an identity and credibility by which to build upon.  But more so, the band became reliant on a style rather than individual talents to keep the ball rolling.  

L&L saved Fairport - IMHO.    

[Jules Gray]

I preferred the reliable jangle of the original Byrds to the later stuff where the ric had been tamed by Clarence's tele.  

I sort of know what you mean, but I love Clarence's playing so much.  Maybe an opportunity missed for more interplay between the two guitars?  I think Roger was somewhat intimidated by Clarence's chops though.

Jules

[Pat Helms]

Maybe an opportunity missed for more interplay between the two guitars?  I think Roger was somewhat intimidated by Clarence's chops though.

Jules

Dang!  Who wouldn't be, right?      It was like trying to keep up with Coltrane on a harpsichord!    

[Jamie]

[/quote]

It was like trying to keep up with Coltrane on a harpsichord!    
[/quote]

Coltrane on a harpsichord? Wow, I'd love to hear that!

[MarkC]

Just weighing in---I first got into Fairport via "Nine," which I still love. I didn't hear L&L until s few years later and (to my ears) it was fantastic for its day, but hasn't aged all that well. What can I say? I also prefer the latter period Byrds as well. Same with Little Feat. I don't expect anyone here to agree, though. No worries.

Truth be known, my very favorite Fairport record is still the next one...

[Jim]

Just weighing in---I first got into Fairport via "Nine," which I still love. I didn't hear L&L until s few years later and (to my ears) it was fantastic for its day, but hasn't aged all that well. What can I say? I also prefer the latter period Byrds as well. Same with Little Feat. I don't expect anyone here to agree, though. No worries.

Truth be known, my very favorite Fairport record is still the next one...

until you've actually  heard it

[Henry Tompkins (Pete)]

Just weighing in---I first got into Fairport via "Nine," which I still love. I didn't hear L&L until s few years later and (to my ears) it was fantastic for its day, but hasn't aged all that well. What can I say? I also prefer the latter period Byrds as well. Same with Little Feat. I don't expect anyone here to agree, though. No worries.

Truth be known, my very favorite Fairport record is still the next one...

until you've actually  heard it

Steady on Jim!  

[Henry Tompkins (Pete)]

 I also prefer the latter period Byrds as well. Same with Little Feat. I don't expect anyone here to agree, though. No worries.

Shurely shome mishtake??   I do like all stages of the Byrds catalogue, but can't imagine ANYONE preferring Little Feat's output post Lowell George? IMHO.

[Neil]

 I also prefer the latter period Byrds as well. Same with Little Feat. I don't expect anyone here to agree, though. No worries.

Shurely shome mishtake??   I do like all stages of the Byrds catalogue, but can't imagine ANYONE preferring Little Feat's output post Lowell George? IMHO.

I can imagine anyone liking pretty much anything, or there would really only be one listener telling us all what to like. I can appreciate the importance of an album but not enjoy the record, all the Doors output for example, this is proven every time Liege and Lief comes up as a topic or Gottle o' Gear gets mentioned.

I can appreciate Liege and Lief, it's not my favorite album but I understand it's importance. I have come to expect my favorites to change on a daily basis as music is really about situation and feeling for me  rather than an analytical concerns. I even at times enjoy The Monkees more than the Beatles, although I have to admit the Beatles jokes are more long lasting.

Neil

[Mr Cat (Lewis)]

I'm one of the rock scene who hated the idea of FC going fully folk.  At the time, and for many years after, I reckoned that Dave Swarbrick joining was the ruination of the band (no offence intended).  Sure, they did some excellent stuff, 'Matty Groves', etc, but it all became very samey.  My opinion has mellowed of late but I still believe the early albums and music was the best.

Interesting comment.  I wasn't old enough to be interested in FC at that time, so my views are entirely with hindsight.  I am not sure that FC went "fully folk" when Swarb joined: they were performing trad/folk style material before that and after he joined there was still a rock feel about much of the material (A Sailor's Life, Matty Groves, and Poor Will.. for example).  Swarb and RT wrote or were involved with much of the best loved FC material of that time and even after RT's departure there was a rock/progressive edge to their music (much of "Nine" for example).

If Swarb joining was the tipping point, that makes only the debut and What We Did..as the best music.  Dare I say it (knowing there will be some who will agree with this comment) bit like saying that Floyd went downhill as soon as Gilmour joined or Deep Purple were ruined once Ian Gillan took over from Rod Evans etc etc

[steve ropeyboat]

For me, there were 2 Fairports.  The one prior to L&L, which I loved, and the one after L&L, which did very little for me, with L&L being the transition point.  So, Swarb's joining was not the issue, it was what appeared to be his steadily increasing influence which changed the band's direction in a way that did not appeal to me.  Fairport would probably have ceased without him anyway, but I would have been none the worse off.

And, for the record, I am a fan of almost everything The Byrds have produced.

[Pat Helms]

 I also prefer the latter period Byrds as well. Same with Little Feat. I don't expect anyone here to agree, though. No worries.

Shurely shome mishtake??   I do like all stages of the Byrds catalogue, but can't imagine ANYONE preferring Little Feat's output post Lowell George? IMHO.

There's never been a Little Feat without Lowell George.    That other band is the Paul and Bill Show......

Also, Clarence and the latter Byrds sang Truck Stop Girl from the early Feats......so things just ain't adding up here!!!  

And, also for the record, NINE might be my favorite Fairport album too!!  

[Nick Reg]

The only question whenever there is a lineup change is do you want the new line up or nothing at all? Because thats the only choice you've effectively got. We should be thankful that certain members have kept it going for so long.
My own favourites are Holidays and Unhalfbricking but that doesnt mean I dont love a lot of the other stuff too.

Nothing wrong with liking the Monkees. Vastly underrated musically.

I love all eras of The Byrds.

Little Feat were obviously at their peak with Lowell but their set a couple of years ago was one of the best I've seen in 25 years of Cropredy.

Is my memory playing tricks or have loads of rock bands had fiddles?