More Beatles to collect.

[GubGub (Al)]

But they weren't put on the album because EMI had said that as they were released (as a double A side) they couldn't go on the album.  

Again, I don't think that was EMI's decision.  It was common in those days for singles to be separate from albums, yet many singles were placed on albums, and the decision about those songs would have been made by the band rather than the label.  By 1967 they were powerful enough to call the shots.

Jules

Certainly McCartney has said many times over the years that the band had a policy of not releasing singles from albums to provide better value for the fans, though this was not universally true as multiple singles were issued from both A Hard Days Night and Help and one double A side from Revolver. In the case of Penny Lane/Strawberry Fields I think there was a touch of panic from EMI. There had never been such a long period without new product from the band and nobody knew in those days whether an act's popularity could survive such a long time out of the public eye. It seems absurd to us now when Kate Bush takes decades to make new records and they still land at number 1.

[Jules Gray]

Certainly McCartney has said many times over the years that the band had a policy of not releasing singles from albums to provide better value for the fans, though this was not universally true as multiple singles were issued from both A Hard Days Night and Help and one double A side from Revolver.

It often depended if the parent album was already out.  Singles might be taken from parent albums, but if a single was out before the album, it usually wouldn't be included.  The exception was usually with soundtracks.

Jules

[Andy]

But they weren't put on the album because EMI had said that as they were released (as a double A side) they couldn't go on the album.  

Again, I don't think that was EMI's decision.  It was common in those days for singles to be separate from albums, yet many singles were placed on albums, and the decision about those songs would have been made by the band rather than the label.  By 1967 they were powerful enough to call the shots.

Jules

Fwiw, Wiki suggests it was entirely Epstein's call.

It's complicated.

Wikipedia actually says

"Strawberry Fields Forever" and "Penny Lane" were subsequently released as a double A-side in February 1967 after EMI and Epstein pressured Martin for a single.When it failed to reach number one in the UK, British press agencies speculated that the group's run of success might have ended, with headlines such as "Beatles Fail to Reach the Top", "First Time in Four Years" and "Has the Bubble Burst?"After its release, at Epstein's insistence the single tracks were not included on the LP. Martin later described the decision to drop these two songs as "the biggest mistake of my professional life"

So, Epstein, EMI and Martin were all to blame, in varying proportions.

[bassline (Mike)]

Now I'm a thinking....where would they have been in the running order if they HAD been included ?
And would any of the other songs been left out ?

[GubGub (Al)]

Now I'm a thinking....where would they have been in the running order if they HAD been included ?
And would any of the other songs been left out ?

Probably not in the latter case. It is not a long album so probably room for them even on vinyl.

[davidmjs]

But they weren't put on the album because EMI had said that as they were released (as a double A side) they couldn't go on the album.  

Again, I don't think that was EMI's decision.  It was common in those days for singles to be separate from albums, yet many singles were placed on albums, and the decision about those songs would have been made by the band rather than the label.  By 1967 they were powerful enough to call the shots.

Jules

Fwiw, Wiki suggests it was entirely Epstein's call.

It's complicated.

Wikipedia actually says

"Strawberry Fields Forever" and "Penny Lane" were subsequently released as a double A-side in February 1967 after EMI and Epstein pressured Martin for a single.When it failed to reach number one in the UK, British press agencies speculated that the group's run of success might have ended, with headlines such as "Beatles Fail to Reach the Top", "First Time in Four Years" and "Has the Bubble Burst?"After its release, at Epstein's insistence the single tracks were not included on the LP. Martin later described the decision to drop these two songs as "the biggest mistake of my professional life"

So, Epstein, EMI and Martin were all to blame, in varying proportions.

Shall, I try red, then?  

When a new Beatles single was requested by manager Brian Epstein, producer George Martin told him that the band had recorded "Penny Lane" and "Strawberry Fields Forever", which Martin considered to be the band's best songs up to that point.[26] At the suggestion of Epstein, the two songs were released as a double A-side single, in a fashion identical to that of their previous single, "Yellow Submarine" / "Eleanor Rigby".

I think both quotes prove that it was Epstein's call.  Martin is saying his biggest mistake was not to stand up to Epstein, isn't he?

[Andy]

Now I'm a thinking....where would they have been in the running order if they HAD been included ?
And would any of the other songs been left out ?

Probably not in the latter case. It is not a long album so probably room for them even on vinyl.

Yes, it'd only be 47:55 with both tracks added. The engineer would probably lose a bit of bass or lower the overall level to fit.

[Andy]

But they weren't put on the album because EMI had said that as they were released (as a double A side) they couldn't go on the album.  

Again, I don't think that was EMI's decision.  It was common in those days for singles to be separate from albums, yet many singles were placed on albums, and the decision about those songs would have been made by the band rather than the label.  By 1967 they were powerful enough to call the shots.

Jules

Fwiw, Wiki suggests it was entirely Epstein's call.

It's complicated.

Wikipedia actually says

"Strawberry Fields Forever" and "Penny Lane" were subsequently released as a double A-side in February 1967 after EMI and Epstein pressured Martin for a single.When it failed to reach number one in the UK, British press agencies speculated that the group's run of success might have ended, with headlines such as "Beatles Fail to Reach the Top", "First Time in Four Years" and "Has the Bubble Burst?"After its release, at Epstein's insistence the single tracks were not included on the LP. Martin later described the decision to drop these two songs as "the biggest mistake of my professional life"

So, Epstein, EMI and Martin were all to blame, in varying proportions.

Shall, I try red, then?  

When a new Beatles single was requested by manager Brian Epstein, producer George Martin told him that the band had recorded "Penny Lane" and "Strawberry Fields Forever", which Martin considered to be the band's best songs up to that point.[26] At the suggestion of Epstein, the two songs were released as a double A-side single, in a fashion identical to that of their previous single, "Yellow Submarine" / "Eleanor Rigby".

I think both quotes prove that it was Epstein's call.  Martin is saying his biggest mistake was not to stand up to Epstein, isn't he?

Sure. It's 50 years later. They're both dead. At this point the real question is whether to buy the Remastered Remaster and if so, whether to get the Mono or Stereo version. Mono for me (because I'm deaf in my right ear!)

Also, will we get the original cover with extra faces? I'm not sure Hitler was ever included in a shot, although his cutout was there.

[Shane (Skirky)]

Yes, it'd only be 47:55 with both tracks added. The engineer would probably lose a bit of bass or lower the overall level to fit.

I think it's the latest MOJO wherein Meatloaf mentions that the only way they could fit Bat Out of Hell on to a single LP was to speed the whole thing up slightly.

[Andy]

Yes, it'd only be 47:55 with both tracks added. The engineer would probably lose a bit of bass or lower the overall level to fit.

I think it's the latest MOJO wherein Meatloaf mentions that the only way they could fit Bat Out of Hell on to a single LP was to speed the whole thing up slightly.

That's a surprise, the original BOOH album was 46:43. Later versions added "Dead Ringer For Love" to add 4:23 to take it to 51:08. Since a vinyl LP can hold up to 40 minutes per side (at very poor quality) this would have been ok-ish.

Incidentally, Todd Rundgren's "Utopia" clocks in at 59:16 on the vinyl single LP release and "Deepest Purple - The Very Best Of Deep Purple" apparently clocked in at 63:37!

See this article for the science.

[Shane (Skirky)]

You'd have to take it up with him, Andy - it was his interview.
In passing though, I'd always assumed around twenty minutes per side was peak performance.
*does quick Google* Ah - http://www.chicagomasteringservice.com/vinyl.html

[GubGub (Al)]

Yes, it'd only be 47:55 with both tracks added. The engineer would probably lose a bit of bass or lower the overall level to fit.

I think it's the latest MOJO wherein Meatloaf mentions that the only way they could fit Bat Out of Hell on to a single LP was to speed the whole thing up slightly.

Yes, I read that. The interview almost made me want to pick up a copy of the album (I always quite liked the title track) but then I remembered that despite the presence of the divine Ms Foley, most of it is poppycock of the first order.

[Jules Gray]

Now I'm a thinking....where would they have been in the running order if they HAD been included ?
And would any of the other songs been left out ?

Probably not in the latter case. It is not a long album so probably room for them even on vinyl.

Yes, it'd only be 47:55 with both tracks added. The engineer would probably lose a bit of bass or lower the overall level to fit.

I disagree.  The norm was for The Beatles to release 14-song LPs.  Pepper ended up being a 13-song LP, which reflected the expanded running time of a couple of the songs on side 2.  And 47:55 would have been very long for a vinyl LP in 1967.  I can see that they might have squeezed 14 songs on there, but not 15.  Something would have been set aside for b-side status.

Jules

[GubGub (Al)]

Now I'm a thinking....where would they have been in the running order if they HAD been included ?
And would any of the other songs been left out ?

Probably not in the latter case. It is not a long album so probably room for them even on vinyl.

Yes, it'd only be 47:55 with both tracks added. The engineer would probably lose a bit of bass or lower the overall level to fit.

I disagree.  The norm was for The Beatles to release 14-song LPs.  Pepper ended up being a 13-song LP, which reflected the expanded running time of a couple of the songs on side 2.  And 47:55 would have been very long for a vinyl LP in 1967.  I can see that they might have squeezed 14 songs on there, but not 15.  Something would have been set aside for b-side status.

Jules

On the other hand, Sgt Pepper (Reprise) is how long? Not much more than a minute if that. How many tracks are on Abbey Road if you count all of the songs in the medley individually? Yes I know it was two years later and albums were beginning to expand but something like Days Of Future Passed also came out in '67, a pop album with an extended running length. I don't think the number of songs would have been any barrier, had they wanted to do it. But they didn't.

[Shane (Skirky)]

Yes, I read that. The interview almost made me want to pick up a copy of the album (I always quite liked the title track) but then I remembered that despite the presence of the divine Ms Foley, most of it is poppycock of the first order.

If you haven't already, see if you can find a copy of Mark Ellen's Rock Stars Stole My Life and gen up on the chapter on Meatloaf.    

[Andy]

On the other hand, Sgt Pepper (Reprise) is how long?

1:19

Incidentally I put together a CD of Sgt Pepper with "Penny Lane" after "Being For the Benefit of Mr Kite" and "Strawberry Fields" after "Lovely Rita". The first works fine but Strawberry Fields doesn't quite fit where I put it.

[GubGub (Al)]

Yes, I read that. The interview almost made me want to pick up a copy of the album (I always quite liked the title track) but then I remembered that despite the presence of the divine Ms Foley, most of it is poppycock of the first order.

If you haven't already, see if you can find a copy of Mark Ellen's Rock Stars Stole My Life and gen up on the chapter on Meatloaf.    

Have read the book but I can't specifically remember that chapter. Will have to re-read.

[Jules Gray]

Incidentally I put together a CD of Sgt Pepper with "Penny Lane" after "Being For the Benefit of Mr Kite" and "Strawberry Fields" after "Lovely Rita". The first works fine but Strawberry Fields doesn't quite fit where I put it.

I'd have to start from scratch if I were to add the three additional songs.  Like this perhaps:-

A
1. Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band
2. With A Little Help From My Friends
3. Being For The Benefit Of Mr Kite
4. Fixing A Hole
5. Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds
6. Getting Better
7. She's Leaving Home
8. Within You, Without You
B
1. Penny Lane
2. Strawberry Fields Forever
3. When I'm 64
4. Only A Northern Song
5. Lovely Rita
6. Good Morning, Good Morning
7. Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band [reprise]
8. A Day In The Life

Jules

[Jim]

You could free up 5.07 minutes by getting shot of Within without you.

[Jules Gray]

You could free up 5.07 minutes by getting shot of Within You Without You.

When I was a kid I'd have agreed with you, but I really enjoy it these days.

Jules