Matty Groves??????

[simon j]

Please correct me if I get this wrong.
The lyrics from matty groves comes from the Ballad of Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard.
Also Sung by among others Planxty. This Ballad has also made it over to Blue Grass in the states.
It's well worth checking out Planxty live 2004 by the way it's one of many stunning songs.
The music to matty groves may have been composed by Martin Carthy am I right??
This is where it gets interesting. There is a traditional Blue grass chune called wait for it......
Shady Groves and sound very similar to Matty Groves.
I am aware that ballads and folk music has been carried round the globe for a while now!
Can anybody link these threads together for me I am running out of clues.
By the way have been at cropredy every year since i was 4, am now 30!!!

[Jim]

pretty much bang on there si,the tune fairport used at the end was nicked off "the famous flower of serving men" by carthy
ralph stanley did a version on his last cd called mathie grove, so i suspect that  is one version that made it over the pond
cheers
  Jim

[Malcolm]

Sir Robert - I heard a different recording on Mike Harding's prog about a year ago sung by a senior sounding chap from Norfolk, whose name escapes me. It was slightly different words ending with 'he cut off his wife's head and kicked it against the wall'. The burial bit was omitted.

No doubt this will prompt someone to remember more details that I have.

Malcolm

[simon j]

Thanks for the warm welcome folks.
Check out this version
http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter/0280/
My question still remains however if there is some connection between Matty groves and shady Groves.
There are some poeple from over the pond who think that shady groves may be a traditional song from the Appalachian Mountains. Where ever that is
But like most folk songs the lyrics are easy to trace it's the tunes or melodies that are harder.
I would guess it's the tendencyin the folk circle to learn by ear as oppessed sheet.
It's much easier to write down lyrics than music.
Sorry to witter on. this ones just got me. ya no .

[simon j]

Just another quick link
http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/303.html.
This is a explanation of the ballad.
Good reading
 

[Ddpiranha]

Thanks for the warm welcome folks.
Check out this version
http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter/0280/
There are some poeple from over the pond who think that shady groves may be a traditional song from the Appalachian Mountains. Where ever that is

The Appalachian Mountains, located in Eastern North America, extend 1600 north-south miles from Quebec to Georgia. The most popular attraction for mountain hiking enthusiasts is the Appalachian Trail, a 2,100-mile hiking trail that winds through forested mountains from Springer Mountain in Northern Georgia to Mount Katahdin, Maine. This trek crosses portions of fourteen states, and generally takes five to six months to complete.

In other words, it's one hell of a big area to trace one song from.

[simon j]

Yep true
But in american.
It's there equivolent to the cotswolds!!!
And the reason there is so much music on the streets down here is, Musicians can't afford the houses

[Pugwash]

Unless indigenous injuns have a Chief Matty Groves I think it much more likely to be of European origin and to have sailed over with settlers.

Not even claimin it to be from these islands. Story tellers/musicians travelled and the songs went with them and evolved. The interestin bit is when they went somewhere for a while and then bounced back suitably modified..

Puggs  

[simon j]

Thanks pugwash
The ballad of little musgrave or matty groves would appear to be from the uk.
But what is unclear is if the tune by carthy for matty groves comes from the u.s or the tune Shady Groves comes from the u.k..

[Ddpiranha]

Simon check out the following:
http://www.contemplator.com/child/mattie.html

[simon j]

Thats amazing!!
Have followed the threads and ended up on this link
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0813109272/ref=pd_sim_books_1/103-4749351-1271822?v=glance&s=books
I  may actually have to buy a real book and read it.
It looks like there may be some history between some families in the mountains and scottish ballads.
You have all been a great help thanks so much.
Has any body read this obscure book.

[simon j]

also see this link
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/ritchie.htm
Must go to bed
Night Night
 

[Paolo]

A great Shady Grove version was performed by Jerry Garcia and David Grisman, a good different version of Matty can be heard in tha last album by one of the finest scottish singer, Billy Ross; the very northern british Pete Morton recorded a good Musgrave based upon Christy Moore unattainable singing.

Cheers

Paolo

[Paolo]

I also suspect some interference, probably taking place in the northern border in the XVII century, between Musgrave/Matty and Raggle Taggle Gypsy: in both case there is a nobleman's wife escaping with a low class young man, and we may notice some common minor topic -the lady says that she prefers to kiss the lover's lips than ... it depends; in both song some version mentions a "good feather bed". I have no information, but I think Musgrave/Matty could be the oldest plot anf the Gipsy a later topic borrowing some fragment from Musgrave because of common features in the story.

Speaking more truly and sincerely, I don't know

Best

Paolo

[Marcus]

There are definitely connections between the two songs. The most obvious is the music, but it seems the lyrics differ completely. Most versions of Mattie all end the same in the story. I've heard Shady being talked about as a person in Doc Watson's version & as a place in others. Another thing is some versions of Shady Grove are in a major key  some in minor & Mattie Groves ,at least all the versions I've heard are in a minor key. It's basically to us a traditional song, it comes from the Appalachian's here & that can then be traced back across the pond to
England, Ireland, &/or Scotland, who had settled in that area of America when they came here. Hope this helps.
& As a secion hiker of the A.T. here's a cool link www.appalachiantrail.org

Thanks for the warm welcome folks.
Check out this version
http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter/0280/
There are some poeple from over the pond who think that shady groves may be a traditional song from the Appalachian Mountains. Where ever that is

The Appalachian Mountains, located in Eastern North America, extend 1600 north-south miles from Quebec to Georgia. The most popular attraction for mountain hiking enthusiasts is the Appalachian Trail, a 2,100-mile hiking trail that winds through forested mountains from Springer Mountain in Northern Georgia to Mount Katahdin, Maine. This trek crosses portions of fourteen states, and generally takes five to six months to complete.

In other words, it's one hell of a big area to trace one song from.

[Paolo]

Appalachians are notoriously a precious conservative area for traditional songs and dances making available living connctions between songs fron the opposite shores of Atlantic. Being an amateur hammered dulcimer player I really appreciate this distinct conservative flavour in appalachian music.

Cheers

Paolo

[Pete Standing]

I've posted this same answer in another thread (Researching trad music) but just in case it gets overlooked, last Friday night at Oxford Folk Club the guest was American blues guitarist Brooks Williams. He played what is noted as a traditional song Shady Grove and it has the identical melody to FC's Matty Groves - so this must be where the Liege & Lief line up got it from.

[PLW (Peter)]

I've posted this same answer in another thread (Researching trad music) but just in case it gets overlooked, last Friday night at Oxford Folk Club the guest was American blues guitarist Brooks Williams. He played what is noted as a traditional song Shady Grove and it has the identical melody to FC's Matty Groves - so this must be where the Liege & Lief line up got it from.

I always thought Fairport borrowed their version from Hedy West (the US singer who died a couple of years ago). Her version is called Little Matty Groves.

[peterwales]

Sir Robert - I heard a different recording on Mike Harding's prog about a year ago sung by a senior sounding chap from Norfolk, whose name escapes me.

No doubt this will prompt someone to remember more details that I have.

Malcolm

This sound like Harry Cox. Famous old traditional English folk singer; I believe he was from Norfolk. Also believe our own Judy Dyble has some knowledge of Harry Cox going back to her connection to a pub in Winterton-on-Sea in Norfolk. He may have been one of the many traditional singers that also once regularly sung in the famous, musically, but geographically remote Eels Foot pub (?) near the Suffolk coast.

[jude]

Sir Robert - I heard a different recording on Mike Harding's prog about a year ago sung by a senior sounding chap from Norfolk, whose name escapes me.

No doubt this will prompt someone to remember more details that I have.

Malcolm

This sound like Harry Cox. Famous old traditional English folk singer; I believe he was from Norfolk. Also believe our own Judy Dyble has some knowledge of Harry Cox going back to her connection to a pub in Winterton-on-Sea in Norfolk. He may have been one of the many traditional singers that also once regularly sung in the famous, musically, but geographically remote Eels Foot pub (?) near the Suffolk coast.

Not Harry Cox,- it was Sam Larner who lived in the same village (Winterton-on-Sea) as my father's family, who knew him very well and indeed sang with him from time to time according to my uncle, now in his 90's, and who has yet to tell me why they called him 'Funky' Larner in their youth......

Jude