Matty Groves??????

[Mr Cat (Lewis)]

On a Cordelia's Dad album there is a song Little William and Lady Margaret (or something like that), which has a similar noble woman fancies a bit of rough theme, replete with the "how do you like my feather bed.." etc although with a twist as in this song the lady is remembering the ghost of a past lover..must re-listen to this.  Very good album by the way, mixing trad folk with some appalachian stuff, very different to some of their more thrashy electric efforts.

[Curt]

Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard is probably a southern English Ballad from around the sixteenth century - it is mentioned in Fletcher and Beaumont's 1607 play The Knight of the Burning Pestle - it appeared in full in Royalist Drollery books from in the 1650s (Like Playford's dance books, the Drollery books used the songs of 'merrie England' as a form of propaganda against the Republic and Cromwellian Protectorate - those lucky enough to access to a University database system could look up Wit and Drollery on Early English Books Online).  From what I can tell Matty Groves is a English/Scots border version of the tune that may predate or postdate the southern English version - I take this from the fact that the early 20th century folklorist Alan Lomax recorded old people singing it as Little Matty Groves in Scotland.

Martin Carthy sings a version of the song that uses the exact words as the 1650s text, although I wonder if the tune originates (as does Nottamun Town in its modern form) from the Ritchie family of Kentucky - you can hear a very similar version on Jean Ritchie's English Ballad (available in all big record stores and a must for all folk historians) - the Ritchie/Carthy version is very different to the early 20th century recordings from England and Scotland taken down by people like Alan Lomax.

As to Shady Grove - this is an Appalachian ballad, I don't think it has an English root, and the FC tune to Matty Groves can be traced to Shady Grove from the early 20th century (I have a compilation of 78s of Kentucky music that has it on) - I always thought Fairport Convention directly or indirectly took the tune to Shady Grove for Matty Groves - as far as I have heard the early 20th century English and Scots versions never used the Shady Grove tune.

[mikec]

Apologies for the OT
Can I make a minor point to mods please. This is why we shouldn't delete posts. Until yesterday the last post in this thread was 2.5 years ago. Other than the Corp Arms please take note.

ta

[Pete Standing]

Good stuff Curt.

[Sir Martin]

On a Cordelia's Dad album there is a song Little William and Lady Margaret (or something like that), which has a similar noble woman fancies a bit of rough theme, replete with the "how do you like my feather bed.." etc although with a twist as in this song the lady is remembering the ghost of a past lover..must re-listen to this.  Very good album by the way, mixing trad folk with some appalachian stuff, very different to some of their more thrashy electric efforts.

Theres a version of Lady Margaret on 'The Garden of Jane Delawney' by The Trees as well. Obviously the same root as Matty.

[Rory.]

Theres a version of Lady Margaret on 'The Garden of Jane Delawney' by The Trees as well. Obviously the same root as Matty.

And another, really good, version of Lady Margaret by Cassie Franklin appears on the Cold Mountain soundtrack album.

Top stuff Curt,   I've done a fair bit of research into the origins of Old Time/ Bluegrass tunes and have come to a similar conclusion; namely that the Celtic emigration, particularly from Presbyterian lowland Scotland and Ulster, to the Appalachians, Virginia, Eastern Kentucky,Tennessee and western Carolina was the source of a lot of these tunes.

There is a book I've had recommended to me , but which I haven't got round to yet, it's 'America Across the Water', Shirley Collin's account of her collecting trip to the Southern States with Alan Lomax - might be worth a look

[Kathryn]

"Matty Groves" is one of the songs featured in the film "The Song Collector" about collecting music in the Appalachians 'round the turn of the last century. Stars Janet McTeer and Aidan Quinn. Not a very good film but worth it for some excellent music(instrumentals mostly--and Iris Dement's "Pretty Saro"....)

[Bob Barrows]

"Matty Groves" is one of the songs featured in the film "The Song Collector" about collecting music in the Appalachians 'round the turn of the last century. Stars Janet McTeer and Aidan Quinn. Not a very good film but worth it for some excellent music(instrumentals mostly--and Iris Dement's "Pretty Saro"....)

Wasn't it called "Songcatcher"? let's see .... yes, Songcatcher: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0210299/

[Kathryn]

Yes, Thank you, Bob. And sorry to everyone else.

[AndyCarter]

Is there more than one song called Shady Grove? When I was in The Mounthoolies we used to do a version of Shady Grove but it bore no resemblence to Matty Groves being more like 17 Come Sunday.

[Bob Barrows]

Is there more than one song called Shady Grove? When I was in The Mounthoolies we used to do a version of Shady Grove but it bore no resemblence to Matty Groves being more like 17 Come Sunday.

Was this the one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRw3NX0zBr8

[AndyCarter]

I don't know as the sound is disable on this office computer, but I'll check it out at home later.

Here's a recording of The Mounthoolies doing it. http://www.geocities.com/mounthoolies/shady.htm Unfortunately the bass didn't go through the mixer desk so it's a bit toppy and it's a windows media recording so Mac users can't hear it, but it will give you the gist.

[Bob Barrows]

I don't know as the sound is disable on this office computer, but I'll check it out at home later.

Here's a recording of The Mounthoolies doing it. http://www.geocities.com/mounthoolies/shady.htm Unfortunately the bass didn't go through the mixer desk so it's a bit toppy and it's a windows media recording so Mac users can't hear it, but it will give you the gist.

Yes, that's the other version of the song I've heard. There is much less resemblance to Matty, except in the chorus. Sing the words "Come home with me Little Matty Groves" instead of "Shady Grove my little miss" and you'll see what I mean. It's a bit of a stretch, but it is there. The melody of the Jean Ritchie version is much closer to "Matty".

[AndyCarter]

Hi Bob,

I've been able to listen to the Jean Ritchie version now and I must say I loved it. I'll be seeking some more of her recordings out I reckon.

[Bob Barrows]

Of course, the first version of the song I heard was the one whose sample can be played on this page:
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:giazefukhgfj

I think theirs is much closer to the version you played than the one Jean Ritchie did.

[Jon Freeman]

it appeared in full in Royalist Drollery books from in the 1650s (Like Playford's dance books, the Drollery books used the songs of 'merrie England' as a form of propaganda against the Republic and Cromwellian Protectorate - those lucky enough to access to a University database system could look up Wit and Drollery on Early English Books Online).

I can't do that but here are a couple of references from our notes (http://www.folkinfo.org/songs/displaysong.php?songid=34)

Wit Restor'd (1658), reprinted Facetiae (London, 1817, I, 293)
Wit and Drollery, 1682, p.81.